[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the hand pair is from a Cubids Bidding Session, the opponent pass through out,
you are green vs. red.
I am giving you the hand of my p, but you will have the chance to explain, why
I am the guilty person, and that I started with the less interesting problem.
You play a 5 card major system with weak NT.

You hold in 3rd position
♠ KT7
♥ AJ3
♦ A4
♣KJ765

The bidding

1H - 2D (1)
2H (2) - 2S (3)
4C (4) - ??? (5)

(1) Forcing NT style, including GF fit raises for partners major
(2) No Game interest facing a 4-7 fit raise, in other words opener
is limiting his hand to 16/17, the specific border is a bit murky
(3) GF fit raise, showing SI and A or K in spade
(4) splinter
(5) Your options appear to be 4D as LTC or giving up with 4H.

Since this is a known ATB, if you bid 4D you risk getting too high,
if you bid 4H you risk staying too low. Your choice?

And as always, I am more interested in reason, than in being validated.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[DavidKok]

Spoiler

• This hand is worth a 4♦ bid. Our hand got much worse on the splinter, but we still have too much. Control in every suit, a prime 18-count (well, before the splinter), partner might still have a decent hand and can sign off with crap, which on reflection we should perhaps ignore and bid on anyway.
  
• I know this wasn't the topic but I do not like the methods. I am missing a lot of information that I would normally use to judge the value of my hand. Here I'm guessing - not a coincidence.

If I understand correctly the 2♦ contains generic strong raises, and does not say anything about diamonds. This was not clear to me right away - could you maybe clarify if that's right?

[P_Marlowe]

DavidKok, on 2026-July-08, 12:47, said:

Spoiler

• This hand is worth a 4♦ bid. Our hand got much worse on the splinter, but we still have too much. Control in every suit, a prime 18-count (well, before the splinter), partner might still have a decent hand and can sign off with crap, which on reflection we should perhaps ignore and bid on anyway.
  
• I know this wasn't the topic but I do not like the methods. I am missing a lot of information that I would normally use to judge the value of my hand. Here I'm guessing - not a coincidence.

If I understand correctly the 2♦ contains generic strong raises, and does not say anything about diamonds. This was not clear to me right away - could you maybe clarify if that's right?

The 2D denies a 5 card diamond suit.
It is either a weak 4-7 fit raise, a bal. hand with 10-12 or 16+.., or a gf fit raise (excluding hands in the 12-15 range, that could make a splinter raise).
2D will also not contain a 5+ cards spade suit, and most of the time a hand with 4 spade, would simply bid 1S.
Game forcing hand with 5+ clubs and a major suit fit, will most likely go via 2D, ..., unless the club suit is exceptionally strong.

[DavidKok]

That's a lot of hand types and not nearly as many negative inferences.

[mike777]

It seems my hand has gotten worse not better.

Seems an easy 4H bid


Wish I knew more about partners hand besides 10-17, 5h , short clubs

[P_Marlowe]

DavidKok, on 2026-July-08, 13:16, said:

That's a lot of hand types and not nearly as many negative inferences.

It works. It is a simpler version than the common 2C response to a major suit opening,
that is now all the rage.
Being simpler and a bit higher, you loose some steps / hand types, but there are gains
as well, besides being simpler.
In the old day the forcing NT also contained a forcing fit raise, it got dropped in favor
of Jacoby 2NT.

But the original question is a matter of valuation.

Simplicity may not matter to many, but it helped me continue playing.
My children are now 10/11, I stopped playing when they got born, except league events 3 weekends
the year, ..., my partner continued playing, got better (winning a Germany Championship),
the partnership survived, not least because at least with due to being able to hold my own,
at least in the bidding department, this was due to keeping the system stable, and we rarely feel
outclassed in this area.

[DavidKok]

Sorry, that goes against almost everything I learned about hand evaluation. We evaluate a hand in context, not as an absolute. The different information changes the hand evaluation. I'd even go so far as to say that good methods enable accurate hand evaluation while bad methods result in relatively frequent guesses.
Besides, I gave my course of action in the first response, precisely to clarify that I want to answer the question first and potentially discuss methods second. I think this 2♦ is much worse than a nebulous GF 1M-2♣. The weak hand inclusion locks opener out of giving detailed responses. The extra step means losing space for showing hand types. The second round rebid by responder fails to clarify hand type or shape, instead showing a control. In my opinion it's arguably not even simpler - my 2♣ isn't all that complicated. I really do not like these methods, and it really should not be compared with the much more solid GF 2♣ response. However, I apologise for hijacking the thread, especially in such a predictable way, and will leave the methods be - though that also means I need to leave the hand evaluation be.

Since this is an ATB, let me instead try to answer that question. We're at a high level in the auction and have not exchanged enough useful information to make an informed decision about our degree of slam interest. That results in guessing sometimes. By nature of guesses, sometimes they will be wrong. Based on what I've seen so far I assign no blame to either player - it's simply an unfortunate gap in the system, like any system has to deal with.

[mike777]

I am at 4C I don't know if

Partner has more than 5h?
Is partner minimum or non minimum ?
Does partner have a decent 4 card side suit?

So I still feel comfortable with 4H.
Axx..KQxxx..Qxxx...x

[P_Marlowe]

Lets assume you play 2C as nebulous, ...

I could imagine the auction goes like

1H - 2C (1)
2H (2) - 2S (3)
4C (4)

(1) GF, nebulous, 3 card gf raise, clubs or bal.
(2) default, not good enough to bid 3H, assume you require add. 15+ value for a reverse, denies 4 diamonds,
in a weak NT system, that usually opens the 5 card suit opener could still be bal.

(3) GF 3 card raise for hearts, A or K in spades, SI
(4) splinter

Now I guess you will have more detailed agreements after 2C than I sketched, but a simple version could
create the above outlined auction.

The question that comes to mind is, which hands would / should make a splinter bid.

[mike777]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-July-08, 14:00, said:

Lets assume you play 2C as nebulous, ...

I could imagine the auction goes like

1H - 2C (1)
2H (2) - 2S (3)
4C (4)

(1) GF, nebulous, 3 card gf raise, clubs or bal.
(2) default, not good enough to bid 3H, assume you require add. 15+ value for a reverse, denies 4 diamonds,
in a weak NT system, that usually opens the 5 card suit opener could still be bal.

(3) GF raise for hearts, A or K in spades, SI
(4) splinter

Now I guess you will have more detailed agreements after 2C, but a simple version could
create the auction above.

Over 2H I rebid 4H

Why?
Partner has exactly 5H
partner has a minimum
Partner does not have a good 4D

Axx...KQxxx...Qxxx...x

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on 2026-July-08, 14:04, said:

Over 2H I rebid 4H

Why?
Partner has exactly 5H
partner has a minimum
Partner does not have a good 4D

Axx...KQxxx...Qxxx...x

So you would expect a 3H bid with 6+?
I would have assumed, that this implies a certain suit quality, which may or may not be fullfilled,
obv. I could be wrong, given that I dont play nebulous 2C.

[mike777]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-July-08, 14:09, said:

So you would expect a 3H bid with 6+?
I would have assumed, that this implies a certain suit quality, which may or may not be fullfilled,
obv. I could be wrong, given that I dont play nebulous 2C.

With six and the vast majority of hands they would rebid 2NT

There are other styles which rebid 2H always showing six or where 2H shows 5 or 6..?
I play 2H always shows exactly 5 and always a minimum hand .


That means you rebid 2H with wk NT

If playing wk NT I assume you would open 1NT

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on 2026-July-08, 14:17, said:

With six and the vast majority of hands they would rebid 2NT

That means you rebid 2H with wk NT

If playing wk NT I assume you would open 1NT

With a 6 card major you would open a weak NT?

[mike777]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-July-08, 14:21, said:

With a 6 card major you would open a weak NT?

No 1H open
2NT rebid with 6 after gf 2/1, playing strong NT


If playing weak no trump and you rebid 2H. You didn't say what it means in your system except 10-17

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on 2026-July-08, 14:24, said:

No 1H open
2NT rebid with 6 after gf 2/1, playing strong NT

It is possible that the neb. 2C is a method more suitable in a strong NT system,
it got developed in N/A, predominant strong NT country.

If this is a valid take away from this thread, I have learned something useful,
I am not yet 100% convinced.

[mike777]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-July-08, 14:30, said:

It is possible that the neb. 2C is a method more suitable in a strong NT system,
it got developed in N/A, predominant strong NT country.

If this is a valid take away from this thread, I have learned something useful,
I am not yet 100% convinced.

I am certainly not advocating neb 2C, though I play it.

Perhaps a bit more details on what 2H shows in yours would help
6+ hearts?
Range?
Side suits?

For example if 6h, my hand suddenly got a trick better

4C? Promise more than 5H and 1O Hcp and short clubs?

For example if 4C promises a non minimum
My hand now is huge

---


Again for me
1H-2D
2H

Would show exactly 5H and a minimum hand and less than 4D, probably often less than a good three but that is a bit more murky...


I would add I could have 4 spades on that specific auction but if so still a minimum opening hand.

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on 2026-July-08, 14:35, said:

I am certainly not advocating neb 2C, though I play it.

Perhaps a bit more details on what 2H shows in yours would help
6+ hearts?
Range?
Side suits?

For example if 6h, my hand suddenly got a trick better

4C? Promise more than 5H and 1O Hcp and short clubs?

For example if 4C promises a non minimum
My hand now is huge

---


Again for me
1H-2D
2H

Would show exactly 5H and a minimum hand and less than 4D, probably often less than a good three but that is a bit more murky...


I would add I could have 4 spades on that specific auction but if so still a minimum opening hand.

It could be, that the nebulos 2C favors opening 1NT when being in range.
If you do this, you have excluded the weak bal. hand from the hand that have to make the 2H bid,
if you also shed the req. that new suit show better than min., than 2H would be av. to show 6+.

[Cyberyeti]

Will partner bid again if 16-17 if I sign off and is he in any way limited by the splinter ?