[mikl_plkcc]

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I actually had slam interest on the hand, but 4♠ was the final makeable contract.

The ♥Q didn't drop, and it was off-side if we finessed instead, so the contract was not makeable. 3 tables were in the same contract, losing 9 IMPs.

5♦x was the par contract which would go down 2.

How would I know that 4♠ was the limit for our hand?

[mike777]

fwiw I also would have been in 5 spades. I think that east hand is too good to splinter, I would start with gf spade raise, 2NT, if that is an option.

[hrothgar]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-May-09, 17:34, said:

How would I know that 4♠ was the limit for our hand?

I'm not sure that you can

With this said and done, 4D is not a good bid.
The most important feature of East's hand is the Heart suit.
Show it ASAP (in other word's start with a 2♥ bid)

I also prefer opening 1NT to 1♠

[mikeh]

There are two schools of thought about how to respond to 1M when holding a strong, long suit plus 4 card trump support. Some assert that bidding one’s suit, then raising the major, is a bad idea because opener will assume you have only 3 card support.

Others, including me, say who cares?

What matters most on such hands are:

1. I have a potential source of tricks. If opener holds any of the top 3 honours then (after I show my gf trump support) he should upgrade.

2. I have a strong gf….in playing strength. I intend to show mild slam interest…see point 1.

3. I have some control in at least one minor, either extra hcp or extra shape.

Bridge isn’t simply adding up points or counting some form of losing trick count. It’s about describing ones hand to partner and listening to partner when he describes his.

Here, I intend to show long hearts, game going values, and sufficient spade support to warrant a mild slam try.

Now, this auction is extremely weird. It makes me wonder whether south showed something by his action over 4D. It’s extremely unusual to pass 1S then bid 5D.

Be that as it may, the splinter is unwise. It describes the diamond shortness and the trump support but it seriously unestimates the playing strength of the hand.

Which is why responder felt he should bid 5H despite partner saying he had no interest in going beyond 4S.

I’ve seen others on this site advocate for splinters to show opening bid values. I do not know of any expert who plays that style…maybe in a strong club method it might make sense since opener is known not to hold a strong hand and splinters are best viewed as saying…’we may have a slam if you have a good hand outside of my shortness…or have a decent hand and the Axx(x) in my shortness. Now…maybe there are some top players who do use splinters to show opening hcp, and I just haven’t met them yet (or they play a big club) but I very strongly suggest that, in a 2/1 type method do not splinter as responder if you have slam interest based on you having a very good hand,

[mw64ahw]

Slam interest is too optimistic on this hand given East's 11hcp, but I think 5♥ is a reasonable call given the shape.
I'd play a systematic 1♠-2N here and Pass over interference indicating a min., but could still end up competing to 5 as East.
Put this down to a well judged sacrifice by North judging that 11-The Law may pay dividends at these colours.

[mikl_plkcc]

Why does someone saying this hand is "too strong for splinter" and others saying this is a "minimum game force hand"? Isn't splinter used for a minimum game force hand?

[Huibertus]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-May-09, 17:34, said:

---

I actually had slam interest on the hand, but 4♠ was the final makeable contract.

The ♥Q didn't drop, and it was off-side if we finessed instead, so the contract was not makeable. 3 tables were in the same contract, losing 9 IMPs.

5♦x was the par contract which would go down 2.

How would I know that 4♠ was the limit for our hand?

Sometimes you simply can't prevent going down in 5. I would have been in 5 as well I guess.

I used to (but no longer do) play a 1Major/2♣ Puppet relay system that would allow us to find out the exact distribution and range of the opening hand. That would have worked as a warning sign on this had given you basically need ♠ AQ, ♥ Q and two cover cards in the minor, a bit much to ask for a 5332 minimum.

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2025-May-09, 23:53, said:

Slam interest is too optimistic on this hand given East's 11hcp, but I think 5♥ is a reasonable call given the shape.
I'd play a systematic 1♠-2N here and Pass over interference indicating a min., but could still end up competing to 5 as East.
Put this down to a well judged sacrifice by North judging that 11-The Law may pay dividends at these colours.

no it isn't, give W AQxxx, xx, Axxx, Ax and grand is great, take away Q♠ and you have a reasonable slam opposite a minimum opener

I can respond 3♥ to 1♠ and would do that.

[mw64ahw]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-May-10, 03:29, said:

Why does someone saying this hand is "too strong for splinter" and others saying this is a "minimum game force hand"? Isn't splinter used for a minimum game force hand?

It is minimum HCP wise, but perhaps a touch strong on the playing side. Opener may turn up with the goods or may not.
The bid is more one of hope than optimism.Stonger hands could be optimistic but take a slower route.

[P_Marlowe]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-May-10, 03:29, said:

Why does someone saying this hand is "too strong for splinter" and others saying this is a "minimum game force hand"? Isn't splinter used for a minimum game force hand?

I would not say: "too strong for a splinter", not suitable is a better word,
it is certainly max.
MikeH said it, you have 3 features, the splinter showes only 2.

And the hand is not a min gf.

But I also dont think 4D is the worst bid, ..., I dont like 5H a lot less.
As it is, 4S said, that opener has diamond wastage, and responder should pass,
saying that he has no idea, if 5S or 5Dx is better.
If 5D comes back to opener, opener should take the money.

High level decision are tough, getting them right is hard and quite often a matter
of luck.

[bluenikki]

mike777, on 2025-May-09, 17:47, said:

fwiw I also would have been in 5 spades. I think that east hand is too good to splinter, I would start with gf spade raise, 2NT, if that is an option.

When there is a long strong side suit, a singleton is just another second round control.

[harikannan]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-May-10, 04:43, said:

MikeH said it, you have 3 features, the splinter showes only 2.

I thought he meant one of the top 3 honours in hearts.

[P_Marlowe]

harikannan, on 2025-May-10, 05:00, said:

I thought he meant one of the top 3 honours in hearts.

The hand has 3 features, spade support (4+), diamond shortage, a strong trick taking suit.
Showing a strong side suit helps partner to understand that a single Queen of hearts is
worth a lot, it closes a hole in a strong suit.

It is possible, that you wont be able to show the diamond shortage, if you dont make the
splinter at once, ..., it is not out of the question, but you cant be sure.
Due to this, making the splinter instead of introducing the heart suit, is maybe unwise /
suboptimal, but it is not a big mistake.

[mikeh]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-May-10, 03:29, said:

Why does someone saying this hand is "too strong for splinter" and others saying this is a "minimum game force hand"? Isn't splinter used for a minimum game force hand?

Because anyone who thinks the east hand is a ‘minimum game force’…well, I’ll try to be polite. Let’s just say that that person counts hcp far too much and playing strength nowhere nearly enough. Slam is ok opposite as little as AQxxx xx xxx Axx.

[mikl_plkcc]

I bid the splinter because the hand had 16 dummy points, and I played it as 13-16. Give me one point more I would start with Jacoby.

[hrothgar]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-May-10, 16:43, said:

I bid the splinter because the hand had 16 dummy points, and I played it as 13-16. Give me one point more I would start with Jacoby.

That's nice

Do you now understand why this is wrong?

[AL78]

The East is one of those hands where slam is good when the hands match well together but hopeless when they don't. I lean towards what others are saying that East needs to communicate the strong side suit with the spade support so West can judge how well the hands fit. It looks like a good hand for a 3♥ fit-jump if you play that. Opposite that, West is not going to be enthusiastic with half their honor cards being in the minor suits so will try to put the brakes on.

[mikeh]

AL78, on 2025-May-10, 17:59, said:

The East is one of those hands where slam is good when the hands match well together but hopeless when they don't. I lean towards what others are saying that East needs to communicate the strong side suit with the spade support so West can judge how well the hands fit. It looks like a good hand for a 3♥ fit-jump if you play that. Opposite that, West is not going to be enthusiastic with half their honor cards being in the minor suits so will try to put the brakes on.

Fit jumps by unpassed hand with no opposition bidding are a very poor use of a space consuming bid. By themselves, they’re not bad, but they aren’t great when you consider that most such hands can be described pretty well by bidding 2H. In the meantime, you give up on other potentially useful treatments.

In my main partnership we play 1 M 3OM as showing a splinter…in any of the three side suits. This shows 4+ trump, around 10-12 hcp, and a singleton somewhere.

This gains because a splinter that identifies the short suit helps the opps. They may be able to find a save or to suggest an effective lead (it’s common that when nv, double suggests a save in the bid suit while red a double suggests leading the suit immediately below the splinter). When the short suit is unknown, they lose this, gaining only when they can double 3OM.

Opener often…usually…just bids game, so the opps only find out the shortness when they see dummy….having made a blind lead. If opener has interest….if he thinks slam may be attainable opposite the right shortness, he bids the cheapest next step…3S over 3H, 3N over 3S, and responder bids in steps. 1st step clubs, etc.

This has the additional benefit of allowing 1M 4m to show a void. There can be a huge difference between a void and a stiff, when it comes to slam.

My other partnership has other uses.

[AL78]

mikeh, on 2025-May-10, 18:34, said:

Fit jumps by unpassed hand with no opposition bidding are a very poor use of a space consuming bid. By themselves, they’re not bad, but they aren’t great when you consider that most such hands can be described pretty well by bidding 2H. In the meantime, you give up on other potentially useful treatments.

Does that still apply if you don't play 2/1 GF which I don't? I can only think relative to an Acol or SA system.

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2025-May-11, 02:48, said:

Does that still apply if you don't play 2/1 GF which I don't? I can only think relative to an Acol or SA system.

Does it also apply if you play it as GF fit jump or big single suiter ? (in an acol context)