[real_goose]

Even after playing bridge for a long time this question somehow confuses me. If you have a six card suit, how many hp do you need to rebid it at the three level; for example in the auction 1♥-1♠-3♥.

Common wisdom is that this shows about 16-18 points and a six card suit. But do you usually add length points for your six card suit, so that you usually have 15-17 hp (if you add 1 length point) or 14-16 hp (if you add two)? Or do you have 16-18 hp plus the six card suit?

Obviously you can upgrade or downgrade your hand depending on a number of specific features (for example a seven card suit), but I'm talking in general.

[DavidKok]

The short answer: length points are a myth, and if partner couldn't raise your suit you should be careful with claiming that that is worth extra. Your rebid already promises a six card suit, there's not much point changing your math for that when it is your partner who should be re-evaluating their hand based on your information.
What's more, jumping to the 3-level is expensive. You are taking away partner's precious bidding space, which hurts not only when it gets you too high, but also when it deprives partner of the opportunity to show their hand.

I would use evaluation criteria that are wholly distinct from length points. But if we are sticking with a point count with adjustments, it's probably better not to adjust for shape here.

[mw64ahw]

I learnt 19+total points
Nowadays I play the sequence as a weaker hand with 6 mod. losers and a suit quality of at least 9 with the stronger hand taking a slower route. Denies a 4-card side suit. Fast vs. slow arrival.

[mikl_plkcc]

I just bid by feel. If it is a non-minimum with decent honours in the suit, that I want the partner to bid game with a minimum responding hand and xx in the suit which would be passed if I rebid 2, I will make the jump.

[pescetom]

I agree with Davidkok and would closely examine the pros and cons of all lower bids before making this one.

[barmar]

In general, when a bidding guideline says you need a certain number of points plus a certain shape, they're already including the adjustments that come from that shape requirement. So adding that in yourself is accounting for it twice.

For example, if someone says that a splinter raise requires 4-card support, a singleton/void, and 11+ HCP, you shouldn't upgrade a 9 count because of the shortness points from the singleton and the extra support. They already took that into account when creating the guideline.

Yuo can still adjust further if you have additional shape features beyond the requirement. You can also upgrade and downgrade based on other features, like concentration of high cards in long suits, well-placed spot cards, aces versus quacks, etc.

[bluenikki]

Would any of you jump rebid. Q65432 with 16 hcp on the side?

[johnu]

bluenikki, on 2025-February-20, 20:54, said:

Would any of you jump rebid. Q65432 with 16 hcp on the side?

I would announce a skip bid, and then bid 2♥.

[awm]

On the most basic level, it's a hand where game is likely opposite a hand that will pass a rebid of the opening suit, but where you are not strong enough to unilaterally force to game. How many points this shows will depend on your expectations about when partner passes, as well as your overall playing strength.

If your suit rebids are very sound because you would pass or open a preempt on hands in the 10-11 point range, then partner will expect something like 12-15 or 12-16 for the suit rebid and will find a call with most 10-point hands, so your jump rebid can start at 17 or a very good 16. However, this is a pretty old-fashioned style (you might still see it in some older books though) and modern players are opening and making suit rebids on hands in the 10-11 range, so partner will expect something more like 10-14 for the suit rebid and will often pass on misfitting 10-11 point hands in response. Thus for many modern players the jump rebid normally starts around 15 (or a very good 14).

All references to "points" above are not adding points for suit length; feel free to adjust them for the known six-card suit if this is your preference.

[bluenikki]

awm, on 2025-February-21, 04:42, said:

Thus for many modern players the jump rebid normally starts around 15 (or a very good 14).

But doesn't that create an unacceptable frequency of minuses?

Certainly, I'm oldfashioned, but mustn't opener's jump in their own suit, or in partner's suit, or in notrump have the message "Even if you don't have your bid, this will still make as often as not"? Doesn't the scoring system require that?

So that responder will _always_ bid game with an ace and a king.

[awm]

bluenikki, on 2025-February-21, 06:06, said:

But doesn't that create an unacceptable frequency of minuses?

Certainly, I'm oldfashioned, but mustn't opener's jump in their own suit, or in partner's suit, or in notrump have the message "Even if you don't have your bid, this will still make as often as not"? Doesn't the scoring system require that?

So that responder will _always_ bid game with an ace and a king.

It's certainly possible that you go down in three after the jump rebid. There are many sequences where you bid something that might be a bad contract when partner has the worst possible hand! However, this needs to be weighted against the possibility of missing game when you bid something less aggressive, which will be quite common here. It doesn't promise anything like 8-9 tricks in hand.

[bluenikki]

awm, on 2025-February-21, 07:51, said:

It's certainly possible that you go down in three after the jump rebid. There are many sequences where you bid something that might be a bad contract when partner has the worst possible hand! However, this needs to be weighted against the possibility of missing game when you bid something less aggressive, which will be quite common here. It doesn't promise anything like 8-9 tricks in hand.

In a noncompetitive auction, going down in a partscore when it's your hand is much much worse than going down in a game.

But you ignored my last sentence. Holding an ace and a king, responder must never worry "Maybe they already need these to make what they just bid."

[akwoo]

bluenikki, on 2025-February-21, 08:31, said:

In a noncompetitive auction, going down in a partscore when it's your hand is much much worse than going down in a game.

But you ignored my last sentence. Holding an ace and a king, responder must never worry "Maybe they already need these to make what they just bid."

What's happened is that people are opening lighter, to preempt the opponents a little. That means the opening has a wider range, and this wider range still needs to be divided sensibly, so that means taking more chances of going down in a part score when opponents haven't bid. In many of these cases, it actually doesn't cost because opponents would've bid if you'd bid less. When it does actually lose, the cost is made up for on other hands where this aggressive style gains.

I was taught to just bid game as opener (after partner has scraped together a response) on a 5 loser hand. That means, with an ace and a king and no ruffing value, if partner is making game opposite your hand they would've bid it already.

[mycroft]

"In a noncompetitive auction" - How many times does 1♠-p-1NT-p; 2♠ get to play (when it's right)? How often were you going to rebid 3♠ with your good 15 and a good suit and you get an uncompetitive auction?

One of the benefits of going to the 3 level immediately is that they don't have time to find their suit to lead/compete in.

But you're missing the point that they're not worried about "going down in 3 vs going down in 4"; they're worried about "+170 in 2♠, in a room full of +620s". And once you have made the decision that you are going to open many 10s and all 11s (and you're not playing some sort of limited opener system (*)), you are faced with "1NT could be on an Ace or it could be a flat 13" and you have to make some choices, all of which have their downsides vs more conservative opening styles. It's the cost you pay for the auctions where you open and the more conservative have to try to come in later.

Quote

Holding an ace and a king, responder must never worry "Maybe they already need these to make what they just bid."

Why? See the footnote for limited opening systems. People playing 11-21 have different issues, but (despite what I said above) +170 will still get some of the MPs, if opener has the top of their 15-19 or so (with more, but not 2♣, they'll fake a GF jump shift, no?). Or it won't. But at least they will get to the game with 15 opposite 9 or 10 that more conservative openers will invite after the two-level rebid (and opener will go because they have extras). And, they will be having the 1♠-1NT; 2♠ auction (that, sure, they're likely not to play, but responder knows what to do (or lead) when they come in) in what for you *could be* an uncompetitive auction - for your opponents.

In other words, you are begging the question. And the responders in this thread (and the ultra-aggressive moderns) are calling you on it. They're "ignoring" it because it's "your opinion, man" and playing what they play, your opinion is just wrong.

(*)I play Precision. 1♠-1NT; 3♠ is a *maximum* of 15, with a semi-solid 6-bagger. It's one of the joys of Precision, in fact (along with 1♠-1NT; 3♦-p, and 1♠-p-4♠, and (if you're playing Bergen, or 2NT LR+, or...) 1♠-p-3♠ "less than invitational" (say 0-bad 9), and... Many people have seen this advantage of opening light and making aggressive calls to the 3 level before the opponents get settled, and are trying to shoehorn it into a Strong 2♣ framework, that's how good it is.