[Shugart23]

I opened the bidding with a pass. Then my RHO passed out of turn. Director is called. LHO bids ( strong) 2C and director lets the auction proceed. Just curious if this was correct

[jillybean]

Shugart23, on 2024-November-18, 14:14, said:

I opened the bidding with a pass. Then my RHO passed out of turn. Director is called. LHO bids ( strong) 2C and director lets the auction proceed. Just curious if this was correct

If that is exactly how it happened. no
LHO can make any legal call but should be reminded that Law16C2, Information from withdrawn calls or plays, applies.

Law30 goes on to say offender can make any legal call at their correct turn to bid. But if the call is not comparable, partner must pass at their next turn to bid.
There is no comparable call to a pass. If I have read this is correctly, then offenders partner must pass at their next turn to bid.

[blackshoe]

So. North passes as dealer. Now West passes, out of turn. The director is called. Did East bid 2♣ after the director call but before the director got to the table? Did one or both of North-South say "that's out of turn" after West's pass, and before anyone called the director East bid 2♣? What, exactly, happened?

[shugart24]

blackshoe, on 2024-November-18, 14:53, said:

So. North passes as dealer. Now West passes, out of turn. The director is called. Did East bid 2♣ after the director call but before the director got to the table? Did one or both of North-South say "that's out of turn" after West's pass, and before anyone called the director East bid 2♣? What, exactly, happened?

I opened the bidding with a Pass. My RHO must have not seen my pass and then he laid a Pass card down. He and I looked at each other and he /we called the director over. Director told me I could accept the pass and just continue on with the bidding or alternatively he had to make a similar bid ( or something like that).(I didn't say I would accept the bid as if nothing happened.)So while director was standing there, LHO went ahead and bid 2C. My partner passed. Director called RHO over to have a side bar conversation and they came back and he said he would le bidding proceed and look at it later.

I'm not upset about anything that happened, just wanted some enlightenment

[Thranduil]

One could argue that 2♦ negative is comparable to a pass here, but the pass out of turn could also show the lack of a long suit in that player's hand as they might have opened a weak two or higher-level preemptive otherwise.

[shugart24]

Thranduil, on 2024-November-18, 17:17, said:

One could argue that 2♦ negative is comparable to a pass here, but the pass out of turn could also show the lack of a long suit in that player's hand as they might have opened a weak two or higher-level preemptive otherwise.

RHO bid 2S which meant he had 7-9 HCP, artificial if that adds anything to the discussion

[jillybean]

Is a call that shows 7-9 comparable to pass? I don't consider it comparable.
I would consider 2♥ (bust) / 2♣ comparable to pass.
RHO can bid, LHO must pass at their their next turn to bid.

Sad, but perhaps RHO needs to pay more attention to the game.

[axman]

 shugart24, on 2024-November-18, 15:18, said:

I opened the bidding with a Pass. My RHO must have not seen my pass and then he laid a Pass card down. He and I looked at each other and he /we called the director over. Director told me I could accept the pass and just continue on with the bidding or alternatively he had to make a similar bid ( or something like that).(I didn't say I would accept the bid as if nothing happened.)So while director was standing there, LHO went ahead and bid 2C. My partner passed. Director called RHO over to have a side bar conversation and they came back and he said he would le bidding proceed and look at it later.

I'm not upset about anything that happened, just wanted some enlightenment

Sounds like the TD has a death wish.

A TD that doesn't cancel RHO call before LHO calls has two OOT calls to deal with.

As a player I can attest great discomfort when the TD commanded I BOOT. It got me a zero rather than the top I had coming.

[blackshoe]

2♥ bust might be comparable -- if it's part of their methods.

I don't think the director handled this very well. That said, the legal auction is now P-(2♣)-P-(2♠). I would rule that 2♠ is not comparable to pass, so opener must pass at his second turn to call. Looks like 4th seat will be playing in 2♠. Good luck.

[jillybean]

Is 'partner must pass if offender does not make a comparable call' AI for everyone?

Can the offender punt a game somewhere with the knowledge partner must pass?

[sanst]

The TD should have given all the relevant information, also that part of 'comparable call', before he gave you the choice to accept the pass or not.
Is 2♠ comparable? I think so. From Ton Kooijman's article on this subject:
"A call is comparable if:
1) it has the same or a similar meaning as the withdrawn call; or
2) it defines a subset of the hands described by the withdrawn call; or
3) it has the same purpose as the withdrawn call (examples given are an asking bid and a
relay, but there may be more)."
I would decide that the 2♠ is in this case a subset of the withdrawn call, but that's certainly open to discussion and dependent on the agreements of this pair.
I still think we should get rid of this rule and can legally act as this TD did: let the auction continue and award an adjusted score if necessary.

[Cascade]

 sanst, on 2024-November-19, 04:34, said:

Is 2♠ comparable? I think so. From Ton Kooijman's article on this subject:
"A call is comparable if:
1) it has the same or a similar meaning as the withdrawn call; or
2) it defines a subset of the hands described by the withdrawn call; or
3) it has the same purpose as the withdrawn call (examples given are an asking bid and a
relay, but there may be more)."
I would decide that the 2♠ is in this case a subset of the withdrawn call, but that's certainly open to discussion and dependent on the agreements of this pair.

This is very likely not a subset. An opening pass excludes most hands with a six or seven card suit it is likely that this 2♠ response does not. A subset would be if everything in 2♠ was in the opening pass but some hands in the opening pass may not be in 2♠. Here some hands in 2♠ are not in the opening pass (as I understand the meaning of 2♠, so clearly not a subset.

[Cyberyeti]

 Cascade, on 2024-November-19, 10:34, said:

This is very likely not a subset. An opening pass excludes most hands with a six or seven card suit it is likely that this 2♠ response does not. A subset would be if everything in 2♠ was in the opening pass but some hands in the opening pass may not be in 2♠. Here some hands in 2♠ are not in the opening pass (as I understand the meaning of 2♠, so clearly not a subset.

It is however in guidelines that you should be generous about this.

example is a 1♣ opener similar to a 2♣ overcall if you missed the 1♥ opener. The suggestion was yes even though some hands that would overcall 2♣ would have opened 1N.

[mycroft]

[in the quotes, my emphasis throughout.]

So, if I have everything clear:

• West passes.
  
• South passes.
  
• The director was called, gave West the option to accept the pass out of turn and call again (29A), but I've yet to have anyone take it in this sequence), and then explained the situation:
  • North must make their normal call, bearing in mind she has unauthorized information (therefore subject to 16A/73C) from partner's action out of turn (30B1a);
    
  • When it gets to South again, they will either have to make a comparable call or North will be required to pass once (30B1b).
• North opened 2♣ (strong artificial and forcing)
  
• East passed.
  
• The director took South away from the table, had a discussion about N-S system (and potentially the desired action and it's comparability), and came back.
  
• South bid 2♠, by system 7-9 HCP.
  
• The director ruled this a comparable call to the initial pass, and the auction continued without further rectification.

If that is what happened, I think everything was correct.

Law 23A2 states that a call is comparable "if it...defines a subset of the possible meanings attributable to the withdrawn call". With the exception of preempts, playing a standard system (if they're playing HCP steps, they're playing standard or sub-standard almost certainly), "all hands" that bid 2♠ "7-9" would have passed in "second seat".

I would have explained that this is considered a Comparable Call as "all" hands that bid 7-9 would have passed (I know the NOS frequently doesn't understand these "no fix" situations, and frequently is resentful about it, so I try to be very clear about the ruling, not just "continue, no further issue"); I would have had 23C in my mind as the auction continued, on the rare but in this auction non-zero case that there is an issue; but nothing here was *wrong*.

Yes, there are preempts. We are advised to not use a "mathematically accurate" definition of "subset"; if it's "basically every hand"(WBF Laws commentary, full quote at *) we should try to get a normal auction in, especially because the director always has 23C available if it turns out that the knowledge of lack of "one of those exceptions" was critical to getting a better result than would have happened (but note the phrasing: "without *the assistance gained*...the outcome could well have been different, and *in consequence* the NOS is damaged". Nowhere near LA level, it has to be "a normal auction would likely not have got there".)

(*) WBF Commentary, Law 23, Pass out of Turn: "The most interesting case occurs after 1-of-a-suit opening from North, e.g., 1♥. There are several responses that deny an opening hand, e.g., 1NT and 2♥. These are comparable calls under Law 23A2. One might object that South has denied a pre-emptive bid by passing out of turn, which he might have had for a 1NT response, but this small difference is easily contained within “similar meaning” (which is also applicable under Law 23A2). However, a response in a new suit, is not a comparable call because it is *unlimited* and forcing."

[axman]

 shugart24, on 2024-November-18, 15:18, said:

I opened the bidding with a Pass. My RHO must have not seen my pass and then he laid a Pass card down. He and I looked at each other and he /we called the director over. Director told me I could accept the pass and just continue on with the bidding or alternatively he had to make a similar bid ( or something like that).(I didn't say I would accept the bid as if nothing happened.)So while director was standing there, LHO went ahead and bid 2C. My partner passed. Director called RHO over to have a side bar conversation and they came back and he said he would le bidding proceed and look at it later.

I'm not upset about anything that happened, just wanted some enlightenment

Assigning W as dealer. When E passed it condoned both COOT. The auction proceeds as if there were no irregularities yet.

[mycroft]

If that happened, then sure. But I read that as "Director gave me the option to accept and I didn't". That may not have been exactly what was written here, but 99+% that's what he was trying to say.

Having said that, that's why I wrote my summary the way I did, and started with *if*. I'm sure I'll be told otherwise by OP if I got it wrong.

Frankly, if LHO waited until *after the director came to the table, and gave the offer to OP*, but *before the OP made a decision* to call, there's more of a problem than just a(nother) BOOT. But it's so unlikely to have happened as to be ignorable. Now, just bidding in turn after the director call but before they got there? Yeah, that happens. But once the director starts his spiel, and gets the "you're in control here" from the players, it is so rare for someone to *then* try to "make the problem go away" that I don't believe it unless it was clearly stated.

Oh, except for insufficient bids. For some reason people are in so much of a hurry to "make it sufficient" that even if the opponents stop them and call the director instead, they'll start pulling the card while the director is working out 25A vs 25B, never mind when LHO is thinking about whether to accept it (after being told she can).

[blackshoe]

jillybean, on 2024-November-18, 22:08, said:

Is 'partner must pass if offender does not make a comparable call' AI for everyone?

Can the offender punt a game somewhere with the knowledge partner must pass?

Yes. And yes.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2024-November-20, 11:19, said:

Frankly, if LHO waited until *after the director came to the table, and gave the offer to OP*, but *before the OP made a decision* to call, there's more of a problem than just a(nother) BOOT. But it's so unlikely to have happened as to be ignorable. Now, just bidding in turn after the director call but before they got there? Yeah, that happens. But once the director starts his spiel, and gets the "you're in control here" from the players, it is so rare for someone to *then* try to "make the problem go away" that I don't believe it unless it was clearly stated.

Oh, except for insufficient bids. For some reason people are in so much of a hurry to "make it sufficient" that even if the opponents stop them and call the director instead, they'll start pulling the card while the director is working out 25A vs 25B, never mind when LHO is thinking about whether to accept it (after being told she can).

I agree with 99% of that, but am mildly surprised about insufficient bids after the dreaded appearance of Director.
In my limited experience they are circonspect about pulling the bidding card or refusing the bid.

[blackshoe]

Personally, as TD I would be tempted to smack any player that jumped the gun while I was in the middle of a ruling upside the head with a 2x4.

[jillybean]

That will teach them.