[jillybean]

Playing in an 8B tournament NZ, restricted, Open player must partner a junior or intermediate.

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Opps are unknown, when West was asked about 4♥, "could be weak"

[mw64ahw]

Don't pre-empt a pre-empt is the top vote “Never preempt over a preempt”...what’s the intuition? (If you agree) (bridgewinners.com)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Pass, although 4S is not the worst crime, and may be percentage, if you play
against peoble, who know, what a 4H bid at the given colors has to look like.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Gilithin]

The cynic in me says that the best bid is "missing" the 4♥ call and "opening" a weak 2♠, getting partner barred from advancing and then correcting to 4♠. Obviously that's not what I would actually do but for the unethical, it is easy to use the social bridge stigma against calling in the TD and requesting a 27D adjustment.

[paulg]

The problem with bidding 4♠ is that partner will not expect this to be an attempted save and you will often find yourself saving at a higher level than you wished.

[apollo1201]

I pass, AND the bidding is not over (yet)

Give me the SA instead of a small one and I will bid (easy at green)

But bidding 4S with that weak a hand will be costly if:
- partner plays me for better and gets too excited (eg we stop at 5S making 10 tricks, or partner blasts slam that goes down, while in both cases they would have made a balance TOX that would have led us to a making game)
- partner bids 5 over 5, either to save but it gets too expensive, or to make only to realize it was a phantom
- W catches us badly

It will work well if we push them to 5, or the cheap 4SX would not have been found otherwise

It looks that there are more cons than pros

[mikeh]

apollo1201, on 2024-February-24, 11:58, said:

I pass, AND the bidding is not over (yet)

Give me the SA instead of a small one and I will bid (easy at green)

But bidding 4S with that weak a hand will be costly if:
- partner plays me for better and gets too excited (eg we stop at 5S making 10 tricks, or partner blasts slam that goes down, while in both cases they would have made a balance TOX that would have led us to a making game)
- partner bids 5 over 5, either to save but it gets too expensive, or to make only to realize it was a phantom
- W catches us badly

It will work well if we push them to 5, or the cheap 4SX would not have been found otherwise

It looks that there are more cons than pros

While the auction is, indeed, not ver, I think the odds are high that partner won’t reopen with a double (assuming west passes).

Edit: that doesn’t mean I’m bidding, lol

[jillybean]

BTW. I was playing Benjaminized Acol here, with 5 card majors and 12-14nt.
There were perhaps 4 pairs playing 4cM 12-14 ACOL, others playing 15-17nt 5cM or 5S4H "ACOL"

Forever the not vulnerable optimist, or perhaps "idiot", I bid here.

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Lead 4♥. ,making 5 for 36/38 of the MPs
If I had left it, I doubt that my partner would have bid 4nt or 5♣. I'm not saying this justifies my bid

[Gilithin]

If you are playing with a corpse, there's no need to do the "Weak 2, oops" dance to silence them. One wonders, if that had happened, whether the TD would rule that Pass is even a LA here.

[jillybean]

Not a corpse at all, a less experienced player. I could be mistaken.
I don't think bidding over (4H) P (P) is obvious.

East has a 1♥ opening and a 4♥ redbid, that of course changes the entire auction.

[mycroft]

I think the "corpse" comment comes from the newer player looking at 3 tricks and a good chance at only one heart loser and happily passing. But you made 5 (because of the convenient location of the queens), so no worries after blackwood finds you off two aces, right?

[jillybean]

Oh, right, that makes more sense.
My comment still stands, I don't think North has a bid.

[Gilithin]

mycroft, on 2024-February-25, 00:09, said:

I think the "corpse" comment comes from the newer player looking at 3 tricks and a good chance at only one heart loser and happily passing. But you made 5 (because of the convenient location of the queens), so no worries after blackwood finds you off two aces, right?

Well 5 was made primarily because the defence missed their club ruff. As for the aces, what proportion of 4♠ overcalls do you expect to find without a first round control after a 4♥ opening holding the North cards? You need to put aside the current hand and think of it like a bidding/UI problem: "4th seat at green, you hold ♠42 ♥T9 ♦AJT9 ♣AKJ65. LHO opens 4♥, partner overcalls 4♠ and RHO passes. What is your call and what other options do you consider?"

[DavidKok]

Gilithin, on 2024-February-25, 04:00, said:

Well 5 was made primarily because the defence missed their club ruff. As for the aces, what proportion of 4♠ overcalls do you expect to find without a first round control after a 4♥ opening holding the North cards? You need to put aside the current hand and think of it like a bidding/UI problem: "4th seat at green, you hold ♠42 ♥T9 ♦AJT9 ♣AKJ65. LHO opens 4♥, partner overcalls 4♠ and RHO passes. What is your call and what other options do you consider?"

Pass looks good to me.

[fuzzyquack]

jillybean, on 2024-February-24, 17:20, said:

BTW. I was playing Benjaminized Acol here, with 5 card majors and 12-14nt.
There were perhaps 4 pairs playing 4cM 12-14 ACOL, others playing 15-17nt 5cM or 5S4H "ACOL"

Forever the not vulnerable optimist, or perhaps "idiot", I bid here.

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Lead 4♥. ,making 5 for 36/38 of the MPs
If I had left it, I doubt that my partner would have bid 4nt or 5♣. I'm not saying this justifies my bid

Great bridge. Keep on going till your Bermuda Bowl title. Don't forget to stick to the same partner.

[jillybean]

fuzzyquack, on 2024-February-25, 07:33, said:

Great bridge. Keep on going till your Bermuda Bowl title. Don't forget to stick to the same partner.

What a stupid comment.
If you read above I think I already make it clear that I know this is not good bridge.

[jillybean]

paulg, on 2024-February-24, 09:13, said:

The problem with bidding 4♠ is that partner will not expect this to be an attempted save and you will often find yourself saving at a higher level than you wished.

Holding this hand in the pass out seat, would you bid?

[paulg]

jillybean, on 2024-February-25, 09:10, said:

Holding this hand in the pass out seat, would you bid?

That is a good question but I'd probably still pass. Partly it depends on your meaning of double in second seat, for example will partner be passing a strong no trump because double is "optional", or will partner be stretching to bid/double with a heart doubleton.

The danger is that both games go down when partner has a fair hand, even though the danger of good spades over me has gone.

But this is why they pre-empt, to create problems.

[apollo1201]

jillybean, on 2024-February-25, 09:10, said:

Holding this hand in the pass out seat, would you bid?

It is close.

That is why ppl preempt, to make you guess in less defined hands.

The weak S fit makes me fear we could be losing 2 trumps or a trump and the HA. RKCB could tell me this, though.

And a green overcall could be less serious than a red one. M

But I would t be surprised to write down +480 on the score sheet.

Without the overcall, it is hard to balance with X because of the 2 small S, partner will too often bid 4S to try to make them and will undoubtedly be disappointed. And 4NT w/ 54 is wrong, imo.

[helene_t]

DD, 4♠ is actually a phantom sac. Not that it matters for this discussion.

That partner didn't make a slam try may suggest that they are on the same wavelength. I am not suggesting that it is fishy, just that it's important to have a good partnership understanding so that if the player in direct seat is allowed to bid lightly, partner should not hang them. It may be a reasonable style at favourable.

There's also the rule that the partner who is short in their suit is the one who should stretch.