[jillybean]

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MP

[LBengtsson]

Horrible, rather than routine imo. Without the 2♣ overcall, in the auction 1♥ - 1♠ - I am bidding 2♦ but in the actual auction 3♦ suggests better shape and maybe extras. I think we are headed for a bad contract whatever, but 2NT keeps things low, and now if partner bids 3♣ we can now bid 3♦. I do not like 2NT but I prefer it to 3♦. Can we pass? Of course not but it might be the best action to try to get a plus score on the hand. At white/red that 2♣ overcaller is bound to have a good suit and an outside entry. My guess is our hands are fitting badly already, but 2♠ is forcing so it is a question of picking not so much the best bid as the least worst one imo.

[TylerE]

Perfectly routine 3D. It's a perfect hand for it.

2N is gross.

[mikeh]

Perfectly routine 2N. 3D is gross😀

More seriously, if we belong in a major, partner will let us know….and it’s a lot easier for us, if we belong in hearts, if we start with 2N. Now 3H by partner definitely shows real support, and is forcing (with real hearts and less than forcing values, no 2S).

Over 3D, 3H is merely a preference, bearing no assurance of anything beyond an inability to rebid spades, or raise diamonds, or bid 3N. Yes, over 3H we can belatedly show the club stopper but why create the uncertainty?

Meanwhile, if we belong in 3N (and how can we deny that is possible) someone has to bid notrump and partner may not be able or willing to do so when we imply no club card of our own?

Over 3D, responder has no cuebid to get us to own up to our stopper.

If we belong in diamonds, especially trying to take 11 or 12 tricks in that strain, responder will surely have his own 3D bid available.

It’s long been a maxim of mine that, when faced with a difficult choice or rebid, make the cheaper of apparently close distortions.

[jillybean]

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2NT was an uncomfortable but obvious choice. The auction sreams misfit, 2♠ is forcing, if we belong in NT I have to bid it and if we belong in a major, partner can carry on. Mike says it all much more succinctly.

What surprised me is out of the 10 tables, I was the only one to bid 2NT. All other East's passed 2♠/3♠ (makes me wonder about unspoken agreements/communication) or they bid 3♦.
All but one auction started 1♥ 2♣ 2♠, one started 1♥ 3♣ 3♠
This is a weekly online game with my partner in NZ, against NZ players. Perhaps they have a different approach in the other hemisphere.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-April-05, 15:16, said:

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2NT was an uncomfortable but obvious choice. The auction sreams misfit, 2♠ is forcing, if we belong in NT I have to bid it and if we belong in a major, partner can carry on. Mike says it all much more succinctly.

What surprised me is out of the 10 tables, I was the only one to bid 2NT. All other East's passed 2♠/3♠ (makes me wonder about unspoken agreements/communication) or they bid 3♦.
All but one auction started 1♥ 2♣ 2♠, one started 1♥ 3♣ 3♠
This is a weekly online game with my partner in NZ, against NZ players. Perhaps they have a different approach in the other hemisphere.

West should bid 3S. East will rarely pass when 4S is good

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2023-April-05, 16:04, said:

West should bid 3S. East will rarely pass when 4S is good

I think so too
West thinks 2NT should show ♠xx and I should have bid 3♦

[bluenikki]

mikeh, on 2023-April-05, 16:04, said:

West should bid 3S. East will rarely pass when 4S is good

East must bid unless both minimum and misfit.

Like the noncompetitive 1♦ - 1♠ ; 2♣ - 3♠ .

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-April-05, 17:18, said:

I think so too
West thinks 2NT should show ♠xx and I should have bid 3♦

It’s not, despite my sarcastic reply to Tyler, that I think that 2N is perfect or that 3D is awful. As I suggested, I think neither is great but that 2N has more going for it, despite the flaws of short spades and weak stopper (although I’d give long odds that RHO doesn’t hold a high club honour….either LHO has AK or partner holds a club honour)

But 4S is silly. Give you xx AQxxx Kxx KJx what does he think you should bid and how does he think 4S will play?

No, he made a terrible bid and is seeking to do anything rather than admit that he erred. It’s a very common human response and one that is difficult to avoid. I’ve seen myself do this on occasion, which is why, in my main partnership, we never discuss things at the table, other than a very occasional ‘sorry’ after a glaring error, but we review every hand a day or two later, searching for things either of us could/should have done better. It’s easier to recognize/admit poor decisions after a little space between error and discussion.

Your ‘Fluffy’ quote is apposite.

[jillybean]

I don't start the 'you should have done this' games at the table, the most I do is confirm what we are playing if there has been a bidding misunderstanding.
This is from a game we played on Tuesday, we got around to discussing the hand a few hours I posted it here. It's hard to argue when every other East who took a bid over 2♠ bid 3♦ and stopped in 3♠ but I think I made my point.

There are so many ways to play this game and I imagine that it is a slow and difficult process to get in complete sync with your partner.

[Tramticket]

We play 2S as forcing. It shows 10+ points and 6+ cards. West is two points short, but has the seventh spade. I would have probably doubled in preference to 2S, but it is close. Having chosen to bid 2S, West should recognise that they have a complete minimum and bid a simple 3S.

[Cyberyeti]

You've reached a not great but not terrible game, you need spades 3-2 with the J onside or stiff J onside.

There is a problem for Acol players here (and weak NT players in general) in that we're conditioned to think that a "2 over 2" 2N rebid by opener shows a strong NT and is thus GF in pretty much all circumstances. This may be one of the very few exceptions.

Does NZ have a culture of "disturbed bids NF" in which case passing 2♠ is very reasonable.

[DavidKok]

jillybean, on 2023-April-05, 17:18, said:

I think so too
West thinks 2NT should show ♠xx and I should have bid 3♦

I've ran into this mistake a lot. When we have a weakish hand with a long suit it is quite common to invent that partners bid (whichever one it is) must imply some tolerance for our suit, so we are justified in making a jump on the next round. I don't mind gambling a bit and jumping to game, but make it a habit not to blame your partner if it backfires (advice meant for West). 2NT is the smallest lie here.

[thepossum]

Coming back after not wanting to be first to comment

I considered a pass

...but will now read all the expert comments

PS For all the scetpics that is the truth I was just too scared to suggest it
I don't like 2NT. I don't like 3D. Pass ????
Sad that I was one of the first to view it before anyone had commented and I know its a bidders' game

Counterfactuals are what they are. Pass is the genuine truth I considered. I don't care if anyone believes me because it is counterfactual

3H ?? still reading

[TylerE]

Yeah, just start passing forcing bids willy-nilly, that's the way to success.

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-06, 02:11, said:

You've reached a not great but not terrible game, you need spades 3-2 with the J onside or stiff J onside.

There is a problem for Acol players here (and weak NT players in general) in that we're conditioned to think that a "2 over 2" 2N rebid by opener shows a strong NT and is thus GF in pretty much all circumstances. This may be one of the very few exceptions.

Does NZ have a culture of "disturbed bids NF" in which case passing 2♠ is very reasonable.

Negative Free Bids? I don't think so

[akwoo]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-06, 02:11, said:

You've reached a not great but not terrible game, you need spades 3-2 with the J onside or stiff J onside.

There is a problem for Acol players here (and weak NT players in general) in that we're conditioned to think that a "2 over 2" 2N rebid by opener shows a strong NT and is thus GF in pretty much all circumstances. This may be one of the very few exceptions.

Does NZ have a culture of "disturbed bids NF" in which case passing 2♠ is very reasonable.

Good point - in a weak NT system, 2N maybe should promise more strength. This does depend on whether you open 1N with a 5 card major in range.

Negative Free Bids do go with weak NT to some extent, but, playing NFBs, this is probably good enough for a 3S bid (precisely invitational) rather than 2S.