[Cyberyeti]

---

2♥ is Ekren style 4-8 4-4 or 5-4 either way round in the majors. You have not discussed any defence to this.

What do you do on round 1 ?

If you pass, obviously that ends the auction.

If you double

Spoiler

Partner bids 2♠

what do you do now

[pescetom]

Tricky, but I think I pass.
Partner had his chance to show a minor or ask.
East's silence also makes the layout look interesting.

[DavidKok]

I'd pass. If I double I have no bid over partner's 2♠.

I think it is good to play direct seat double of such a 2♥ as values, typically the boring 13-15 (semi)balanced or 18+ any.

[jillybean]

It's a 2 part poll, someone has to bid.
2NT or whatever shows the minors

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2023-April-01, 16:25, said:

It's a 2 part poll, someone has to bid.
2NT or whatever shows the minors

In protective seat 2N is 15-17 for most people so x shows the minors.

[pilowsky]

Double and apply a pained expression.
And now:

Spoiler

2NT and hope for the best

[Cyberyeti]

pilowsky, on 2023-April-01, 17:39, said:

Double and apply a pained expression.
And now:

Spoiler

2NT and hope for the best

This is what happened at the table. This was a directorial, the pass over 2♥ was slow and accompanied by questions, their partner raised to 3N.

If 2N is 15-17, x then 2N to many people will be stronger than that not weaker.

Partner had their hesitation (AK10xxx, xx, KJxx, x), passing 2♥ will net you about 400, 3N makes for 600, if you have the Ekren bid, it is tempting to play a spade towards the 10, and if the player splits, you can endplay him with the 4th heart to play a spade, so they made 630 for a cold bottom for us. I find W's actions (hesitating, not bidding 2♠ first time, not bidding 3♠ second time) very odd and fielded by partner.

We were going to ask for a ruling, but it wouldn't change our position so we didn't. Our contention was that a) pass is a LA first time b) passing 2♠ is also in the frame

[AL78]

I can understand the hesitation and not bidding 2♠ if the opening showed both majors, who knows how partner would interpret it?

[DavidKok]

I don't think passing 2♠ is a realistic option. You know that LHO has that suit and that you've only got a singleton. If you don't have a good bid on the second round, don't double in the first place.
You can (and should) always call the director if you think something unfair is going on. They might decide to make a note, or explain that nothing is wrong, or something else. Calling the director is not an accusation.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2023-April-02, 03:09, said:

I don't think passing 2♠ is a realistic option. You know that LHO has that suit and that you've only got a singleton. If you don't have a good bid on the second round, don't double in the first place.
You can (and should) always call the director if you think something unfair is going on. They might decide to make a note, or explain that nothing is wrong, or something else. Calling the director is not an accusation.

Surely partner knows there are 4 spades on the right, what do you xpect him to do with ♠QJ109xx and out ? but he doesn't have that with the hesitation.

He also knows that your x might well be minor suit orientated given the opener, and should be telling you that he has a lot of spades.

[TMorris]

I think you shuold call the director.

If its a pairs it will affect other peoples scores.
It will encourage (or at least not discourage) these people to do it again.
If this is a local event the dierctor may have seen this sort of thing done before and may impose a rather stronger penalty then you think.

[Cyberyeti]

TMorris, on 2023-April-02, 03:32, said:

I think you shuold call the director.

If its a pairs it will affect other peoples scores.
It will encourage (or at least not discourage) these people to do it again.
If this is a local event the dierctor may have seen this sort of thing done before and may impose a rather stronger penalty then you think.

It was a county congress swiss pairs, I didn't recognise the opps, they were not in contention, we were third a mile behind the top 2.

It followed them using an illegal convention on the previous board.

[DavidKok]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-02, 03:30, said:

He also knows that your x might well be minor suit orientated given the opener, and should be telling you that he has a lot of spades.

I don't play these methods. We lost the clubs years ago, are losing the diamonds and the hearts are next. Minor-oriented takeout doubles when it's unclear whose hand it is and whether or not they have a fit seems like a poor agreement. Double is just values, (semi)balanced and no good other bid. There is no implied suit ranking other than the known length of the 2♥-opener.

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-02, 03:30, said:

Surely partner knows there are 4 spades on the right, what do you xpect him to do with ♠QJ109xx and out ? but he doesn't have that with the hesitation.

I expect him to bid 2♠ if I double, and it'll always be right since my hand won't be stuck over that (it'll either have some spade tolerance or enough values to bid again). Obviously including partner's hesitation here is ridiculous - I think it is important to keep the comments on defensive agreements and comments on what might have happened at the table separate.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2023-April-02, 04:14, said:

I don't play these methods. We lost the clubs years ago, are losing the diamonds and the hearts are next. Minor-oriented takeout doubles when it's unclear whose hand it is and whether or not they have a fit seems like a poor agreement. Double is just values, (semi)balanced and no good other bid. There is no implied suit ranking other than the known length of the 2♥-opener.

I expect him to bid 2♠ if I double, and it'll always be right since my hand won't be stuck over that (it'll either have some spade tolerance or enough values to bid again). Obviously including partner's hesitation here is ridiculous - I think it is important to keep the comments on defensive agreements and comments on what might have happened at the table separate.

When opener has shown 2 suits, it's pretty normal for X to show the other 2, it's just a question whether when it can be 4-4 this applies, I'd certainly expect it to be minors if it showed 5-5.

Including partner's hesitation is relevant to the directorial because it makes both the x AND the 2N MUCH safer.

I actually have some liking for 2N to be 12-15 or so in 4th seat, but not sure if anybody does this, a bit like a protective 1N.

[Gilithin]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-01, 15:32, said:

2♥ is Ekren style 4-8 4-4 or 5-4 either way round in the majors. You have not discussed any defence to this.

Did you pre-alert? It seems somewhat naive that we did not have at least some basic discussion after this.

[the hog]

"You have not discussed any defence to this."
Well, not having a defence to a not uncommon agreement is a bit silly. Anyway, pass is clearcut. Partner has spades.

[the hog]

"Partner had their hesitation (AK10xxx, xx, KJxx, x)"ROFL. Seriously? Partner had an obvious natural 2S overcall.

[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2023-April-26, 23:44, said:

"Partner had their hesitation (AK10xxx, xx, KJxx, x)"ROFL. Seriously? Partner had an obvious natural 2S overcall.

If you've not discussed your defence, are you sure 2♠ is natural ? I can imagine people having discussed their defences to 5-5 2 suited bids and being unsure if this applies.

Ekren is pretty uncommon here but is played by a few.

To GLithin: pre-alerting is not as common here, there is a section front and top of the convention card which is effectively "unusual stuff you need to know about" and it's in there. If we sit down at a table, we tend to say "Acol, weak and non standard 2 bids" as our 2♠ is particularly unusual.

[the hog]

"If you've not discussed your defence, are you sure 2♠ is natural ?" Of course we have discussed a defence to Ekrens. If you play seriously, why wouldn't you"

[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2023-April-27, 01:49, said:

"If you've not discussed your defence, are you sure 2♠ is natural ?" Of course we have discussed a defence to Ekrens. If you play seriously, why wouldn't you"

Maybe you have, here in clubs you will have it opened against you maybe once or twice a year if you play every week so you may not.