[Shugart23]

can an opening of 2NT show a hand being at least 5-5 in the minors , with any HCP range ?

can opening of 2NT show at least 5-5 in the minors with 5-9 HCP OR 11-15 HCP?

can an opening of 2NT show a hand that is either at least 5-5 in the minors OR a long club suit ?

Can a 3NT opening show an unspecified 4 of a Major bid ?

Thanks

[axman]

 Shugart23, on 2022-February-26, 09:07, said:

can an opening of 2NT show a hand being at least 5-5 in the minors , with any HCP range ?

can opening of 2NT show at least 5-5 in the minors with 5-9 HCP OR 11-15 HCP?

can an opening of 2NT show a hand that is either at least 5-5 in the minors OR a long club suit ?

Can a 3NT opening show an unspecified 4 of a Major bid ?

Thanks

But. Is that what you want?

It sounds like you tried to figure it out. Similarly, as I aim to learn from others, I'm not inclined to try:(

[Shugart23]

 axman, on 2022-February-26, 10:02, said:

But. Is that what you want?

It sounds like you tried to figure it out. Similarly, as I aim to learn from others, I'm not inclined to try:(

Yes, I need to know what ACBL allows and doesn't, so as not to run into problems. I believe multi 2D is still not allowed

[pescetom]

 Shugart23, on 2022-February-26, 09:07, said:

can an opening of 2NT show a hand being at least 5-5 in the minors , with any HCP range ?

can opening of 2NT show at least 5-5 in the minors with 5-9 HCP OR 11-15 HCP?

can an opening of 2NT show a hand that is either at least 5-5 in the minors OR a long club suit ?

Can a 3NT opening show an unspecified 4 of a Major bid ?

I'm sure the ACBL troops will soon come to the rescue with a precise reply about what is banned at which levels.
In the meantime FWIW, I think the WBF take on these is:
1. ok
2. ok
3. BS (but make both options promise 10+ HCP and it would be ok)
4. ok
[Edited in light of subsequent clarifications]

[hrothgar]

 Shugart23, on 2022-February-26, 09:07, said:

can an opening of 2NT show a hand being at least 5-5 in the minors , with any HCP range ?

can opening of 2NT show at least 5-5 in the minors with 5-9 HCP OR 11-15 HCP?

can an opening of 2NT show a hand that is either at least 5-5 in the minors OR a long club suit ?

Can a 3NT opening show an unspecified 4 of a Major bid ?

Thanks

The charts are very easy to read and understand.

If you're too lazy to try and figure this out for yourself, I'm not sure why others should help you. If you have specific questions about interpreting the language, I'm sure that folks will be willing to lend a hand.

Please note: The answer might not be the same depending on the specific convention chart that is being used.

[Shugart23]

 hrothgar, on 2022-February-26, 11:06, said:

The charts are very easy to read and understand.

If you're too lazy to try and figure this out for yourself, I'm not sure why others should help you. If you have specific questions about interpreting the language, I'm sure that folks will be willing to lend a hand.

Please note: The answer might not be the same depending on the specific convention chart that is being used.

Open chart, and the answers are not clear to me even if they are obvious to you

[hrothgar]

 Shugart23, on 2022-February-26, 11:21, said:

Open chart, and the answers are not clear to me even if they are obvious to you

Well, lets try it this way.

The Open Chart allows any opening bid that is not specifically disallowed.

None of the bids that you describe fit the definition of Destructive, so we can ignore all that.

The Open chart disallows 11 specific types of opening bids.
The first seven of these deal with one level openings.

So, the only thing that matters here are lines 8 - 11

> can an opening of 2NT show a hand being at
> least 5-5 in the minors , with any HCP range ?

which if any of these lines might apply to this opening bid?

> can opening of 2NT show at least 5-5 in the minors
> with 5-9 HCP OR 11-15 HCP?

How does applying a narrow HCP range to the opening bid change the applicable regulations?

> can an opening of 2NT show a hand that is either at least 5-5 in the minors OR a long club suit ?

How is this opening different that a 2NT opening that shows Clubs and Diamonds?

> Can a 3NT opening show an unspecified 4 of a Major bid ?

which if any of these lines might apply to this opening bid?

[mycroft]

While still appealing to "not spoonfeeding the answers, you can read the charts yourself", I just might be slightly nicer than Hrothgar. So I'll ask: "What of the Disallowed lines are you concerned your bids might violate?" and also say "I'd pay especial attention to Open, Disallowed, 7, which seems to be the first relevant hurdle to cross. Oh, and of course, the definition of Preempt (which likely isn't what you think it is)."

[Shugart23]

 mycroft, on 2022-February-26, 14:08, said:

While still appealing to "not spoonfeeding the answers, you can read the charts yourself", I just might be slightly nicer than Hrothgar. So I'll ask: "What of the Disallowed lines are you concerned your bids might violate?" and also say "I'd pay especial attention to Open, Disallowed, 7, which seems to be the first relevant hurdle to cross. Oh, and of course, the definition of Preempt (which likely isn't what you think it is)."

Thank you for providing some helpful comments

Disallowed rule 7 would seem to disallow a 2NT being either 5-5 in the Minors OR a long club suit as I would read it.

I'm not sure what you were driving at when looking at the definition of preempt.. I've always thought a preempt is a weak jump bid, whether at the open or after, so I am missing your thinking.

Rule 11 would also seem to limit the point range to 9 for a 2NT to have any range, so a range of 5 -15 would seem to be disallowed,

But , after another reading, an OVERCALL of 2NT over a natural suit opening would seemingly be wide open as to what it could mean..eg. could show both Minors OR Clubs, could have whatever point range the partnership agrees to. Is that correct ..e.g a multi-2NT is legal as an overcall of a suit?

For the opening bid of 3NT to be an undisclosed Major, my memory has it that the rule used to be that it has to be a solid suit,,eg, AKQxxxx and that Kxxxxxxxx would not qualify as an allowable 3NT opening showing a Major. Maybe my memory is faulty or the rules are more lax.

Thanks for any comment

[mycroft]

I would read the same way for 5-5m or... There is a specific exception for 2NT "5-5 in the minors, could be (or always is) weak". Exceptions, especially exceptions about weak hands, tend to be very limited and guarded strictly.

I know that 3NT "non-solid major" used to be disallowed GCC and I think Mid-Chart as well (not going to look it up, don't care any more :-). But I don't see anything now. I think, in fact, that that was one of the changes they wanted to add to the Open chart, given all the frustrations about it not being legal in the before times.

Disallowed, 11, refers to *non-Forcing* 2 level openings. If you want to play any of your options as passable, then, sure, no, you can't. But I think there are bigger problems with doing that with your suggestions than just the legal ones.

I was right, Preempt (on the Convention Charts, and the Alert Regulations) means something different than you think. Note, that's neither surprising nor an insult - there are several defined terms in this document that don't mean what "everyone" thinks they mean. This is one of them. As homework, figure out if 2NT "9-34, 5-4 or better in the minors" is a Preempt.

[Shugart23]

 mycroft, on 2022-February-26, 15:33, said:

I would read the same way for 5-5m or... There is a specific exception for 2NT "5-5 in the minors, could be (or always is) weak". Exceptions, especially exceptions about weak hands, tend to be very limited and guarded strictly.

I know that 3NT "non-solid major" used to be disallowed GCC and I think Mid-Chart as well (not going to look it up, don't care any more :-). But I don't see anything now. I think, in fact, that that was one of the changes they wanted to add to the Open chart, given all the frustrations about it not being legal in the before times.

Disallowed, 11, refers to *non-Forcing* 2 level openings. If you want to play any of your options as passable, then, sure, no, you can't. But I think there are bigger problems with doing that with your suggestions than just the legal ones.

I was right, Preempt (on the Convention Charts, and the Alert Regulations) means something different than you think. Note, that's neither surprising nor an insult - there are several defined terms in this document that don't mean what "everyone" thinks they mean. This is one of them. As homework, figure out if 2NT "9-34, 5-4 or better in the minors" is a Preempt.

Is your point that since the 9-34 point hand might have only 9 HCP, that it is defined as a preempt ? That would be surprising to see a 18 point hand come down and being told it was a premptive bid for sure..

Yes, my partner better have a good reason for passing my 2NT !

so , do you agree a multi-2NT overcall would be allowed without any ( or very limited) restrictions ?

[mycroft]

Please read the definition of Preempt. It *is* a Preempt, despite the fact that it's not at all preemptive, and is almost always at least a good opener. None of that matters, it could be (in rare cases, sure, but it could be) weaker than Average (10 HCP or Ro19), so it's a Preempt - so the rules on Preempts apply (including the one that says that "if it wasn't both minors, it would be disallowed"). Many things that you, I, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all, would never think of as a preemptive bid (such as Mixed Jump Raises)(*) are Preempts per the definitions and must meet the rules (of course, Mixed raises do. Of course, they do.)

But when asking questions about "is this legal", you have to deal with the Defined Meaning of the relevant terms, even if in this exact case, it makes no sense with the accepted meaning of the term.

See also Artificial (which has the additional joy of being a different definition than the one in the FLB), Psychic Control (Watson doubles?), Cuebid (which is in my eyes the correct definition, but is not what many players think it means over a strong club), and possibly Length. And, at least for Alerting purposes, try to understand Negative Double. I dare you :-).

And yes, I read the chart that you get to do (almost) anything with 2NT overcalls (PDIA and psyching aside).

[Edit 2024: The PTB have looked at that definition and changed it so that my statement here no longer is correct. "Preempt" only applies to openings and overcalls now. Of course, that means that 1♠-p-4♠ that is "5 spades and a singleton, probably < 6 high" is no longer a Preempt for the charts. Having said *that*, the charts try not to care too much about responder's bids.)

[sanst]

 Shugart23, on 2022-February-26, 09:07, said:

can opening of 2NT show at least 5-5 in the minors with 5-9 HCP OR 11-15 HCP?

And what are you going to do with a hand with exactly 10HCP? As a director I certainly wouldn’t believe you if you claimed that it is the first time you open that hand with 2NT. Also I would demand that you can show a system card with the possible answers and the answers to these in detail. What are the ACBL-rules I don’t know, but in WBF tournaments you should provide the opponents with a defense to the BS conventions.

[Douglas43]

Just dawned on me that BS means Brown Sticker. That's a relief. I've seen plenty of the other sort of bs conventions over the years.

[pescetom]

 Douglas43, on 2022-February-27, 03:04, said:

Just dawned on me that BS means Brown Sticker. That's a relief. I've seen plenty of the other sort of bs conventions over the years.

[EDIT: confused comment removed]

I imagine that the choice of brown as the colour of the sticker was not coincidental, come to that.

[sanst]

 pescetom, on 2022-February-27, 03:48, said:

I imagine that the choice of brown as the colour of the sticker was not coincidental, come to that.

Since you have green, blue, red and yellow systems according to the WBF Systems Policy, there are not many colours left that are clearly distinguishable from these. So it’s probably not coincidental, the WBF just doesn’t like orange, purple or pink . And grey is just that, grey .

[Shugart23]

 sanst, on 2022-February-27, 02:54, said:

And what are you going to do with a hand with exactly 10HCP? As a director I certainly wouldn’t believe you if you claimed that it is the first time you open that hand with 2NT. Also I would demand that you can show a system card with the possible answers and the answers to these in detail. What are the ACBL-rules I don’t know, but in WBF tournaments you should provide the opponents with a defense to the BS conventions.

I'm not seeing where opening 2NT showing a range of 6-15 , or quite possibly even 0-15 would be disallowed. However...If a variable range were to be allowed...say 5-8/9 OR 11-15, the idea behind it would be to have subsequent bids letting partner know you are weak or strong. If having two different ranges were the agreement, opening a 10 point hand is messing up the partnership agreement; one would be better off passing or possibly opening 1D.

[Shugart23]

 pescetom, on 2022-February-27, 03:48, said:

Number 4 does not look to be BS but it certainly does look to be bs.

I imagine that the choice of brown as the colour of the sticker was not coincidental, come to that.

Our 3NT bid is an idle bid for us. SO Gambling 3NT is one possible use of it. However, we all have hands that are worthy of preempting 4H or 4S. Some of these hands could actually even be preempted even higher, say, 5 or 6 Hearts or Spades, but what would be the point of that ? The 3NT opening gives room for partner to ask questions with the 4C or 4D bids, to hone in more specifically how 'strong' of a preempt is it. For example, suppose you have the AKx of Diamonds, Axxxx of Hearts, x of Spades, xxx of Clubs and you hear partner open 3NT ? Yeah, you can just bid 4S, but there is room to explore for more if you want.

Not vulnerable against Opponent's vulnerable, playing Match point, how do you open each of these 4 hands ? (just curious)


KJxxxxxx xx xxx void
AKxxxx x QJ10 xxx
AKQxxxxx xx x Ax
QJxxxxx void QJx QJx

[hrothgar]

 sanst, on 2022-February-27, 02:54, said:

And what are you going to do with a hand with exactly 10HCP? As a director I certainly wouldn’t believe you if you claimed that it is the first time you open that hand with 2NT. Also I would demand that you can show a system card with the possible answers and the answers to these in detail. What are the ACBL-rules I don’t know, but in WBF tournaments you should provide the opponents with a defense to the BS conventions.

I think that a director would be better off learning basic definitions such as "What is a Brown Stick Convention?" before pontificating about them because a 2NT opening that shows 5/5 in the minors sure as hell doesn't qualify (nor do openings of 3NT and above)

And, while I'm not sure about this, I don't think that the WBF requires players to provide suggested defenses to Brown Sticker COnventions.

I suspect that folks might find your little tirades more edifying if they were grounding in reality rather than inaccurate assertions.

[pescetom]

 Shugart23, on 2022-February-27, 05:24, said:

Our 3NT bid is an idle bid for us. SO Gambling 3NT is one possible use of it. However, we all have hands that are worthy of preempting 4H or 4S. Some of these hands could actually even be preempted even higher, say, 5 or 6 Hearts or Spades, but what would be the point of that ? The 3NT opening gives room for partner to ask questions with the 4C or 4D bids, to hone in more specifically how 'strong' of a preempt is it.

My comment was inappropriate because I misread your OP, my apologies. I read "show an unspecified 4 of a Major" as "show a hand with 4 cards in an unspecified Major" rather than "show a hand worth a sound opening of 4 in an unspecified Major". So 3NT as an alternative to Namyats, which of course has sense and is already played by some.

 Shugart23, on 2022-February-27, 05:24, said:

Not vulnerable against Opponent's vulnerable, playing Match point, how do you open each of these 4 hands ? (just curious)

>> KJxxxxxx xx xxx void
4♠ playing Namyats, otherwise 2♠ ready to bid 4♠ if provoked

>> AKxxxx x QJ10 xxx
1♠

>> AKQxxxxx xx x Ax
4♦ playing Namyats, otherwise 2♣ then 3♠ (yes I'm not in EBU)

>> QJxxxxx void QJx QJx
3♠