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A few questions about leads Corrupted by GiB

#1 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-October-18, 03:12

Hi all

I have found one of the most difficult things to get used to (playing Gib) since I came back to Bridge after something of a hiatus has been the leads. Maybe its different systems or conventions or trends

When I started out many years ago I learned the standard no trump leads of 4th highest (of longest suit) etc
I learned a range of attacking leads against suits, singletons, doubletons, tops of sequences, aces
I learned to lead partner's suit

I hardly ever led trumps. I was led to believe you only lead trumps if you think declarer has a problem in that area

I also as responder (receiver??) learned to lead back what was led, unless an obvious alternative was there etc

But I have become corrupted after years playing with GiB and learning that a lead back to what was led is rarely fruitful due to something called passive leads. For me, passive is the last resort

Can any experts or advanced players please advise (even intermediates or beginners)

Thanks P(ever disappointed)

EDIT But I haven't learned. I still keep leading Gib's suit hoping to find something, leading back the opening lead etc
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#2 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-October-18, 04:14

I am not at all fit to comment on GIB leads - I imagine it's a crapshoot at best.

In general your considerations are spot on:
  • If you suspect the opponents have a good source of tricks, an active lead is indicated. This typically means leading away from your own strength in the hope of finding partner with suitable values - high risk, high return. If your hand is very weak this means trying to find partner's values, and the bidding is typically a big help in locating these. As a general rule, if there are no indications to the contrary active leads are the percentage move. This is the situation where you would really like partner to lead back your suit once they get in.
  • However, on certain auctions it is clear the opponents do not have any extras and are barely scraping by if left on their own. Examples are 1NT-2NT; 3NT (assuming 2NT natural), 1NT-a.p., long and winding auctions to slam where both hands have shown doubt, partscore competitions where it seems they have overbid and more. In those cases it is often best to lead passively, in an attempt to make every honour count.
  • There are three good reasons for leading trumps: you suspect the opponents have a problem making enough tricks and drawing their trumps cuts down on their ruffs, you have unprotected honours in every other suit and do not have a good alternative or you are looking for an extremely passive lead. As a general rule of thumb trump leads against high-level contracts are the most passive of all, because it is the suit opponents are most likely to have their values in (and, by implication, the suit partner is most likely to be broke in). Personally I think people lead trumps way too often, and one of the points I warn pickup partners about is that I will rarely do so unless there is a strong indication it is likely to gain.
In my limited experience most textbooks on leads and returns place great emphasis on active leads. This is somewhat reasonable, as these are frequently best. But it can leave one shook if partner opts for a passive lead, which may be indicated on the auction or hand.
If you think this is helpful I would be more than happy to go into more detail and/or recommend (and recommend against) some books on leads and defence.
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#3 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-October-18, 05:40

I find that the stuff that GIB does translates into real Bridge sometimes.
Regarding leads, if GIB leads low then it's 3rd down or 4th down - mostly.


This means that the rule of 11 is really helpful with GIB.


If it leads high it comes from a doubleton - sometimes.
If it can lead a singleton in a suit contract it will.
If you make a lead directing bid it will assume you have an honour but the chances of getting a lead of that suit are about 50/50.
It will often lead trumps in a suit contract if it has nothing better - particularly if it has a singleton and it rates you for a 4/4 fit - eg after a Stayman sequence.


Regarding discards. It could be my imagination but GIB seems to prefer to discard high if it makes no difference.


I would also like expert opinion on returning leads.


Trying to figure out GIB leads makes me work much harder in FTF but it also means my own signalling is hopeless guesswork - mostly.
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#4 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-October-18, 19:10

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-18, 04:14, said:

I am not at all fit to comment on GIB leads - I imagine it's a crapshoot at best.

In general your considerations are spot on:
  • If you suspect the opponents have a good source of tricks, an active lead is indicated. This typically means leading away from your own strength in the hope of finding partner with suitable values - high risk, high return. If your hand is very weak this means trying to find partner's values, and the bidding is typically a big help in locating these. As a general rule, if there are no indications to the contrary active leads are the percentage move. This is the situation where you would really like partner to lead back your suit once they get in.
  • However, on certain auctions it is clear the opponents do not have any extras and are barely scraping by if left on their own. Examples are 1NT-2NT; 3NT (assuming 2NT natural), 1NT-a.p., long and winding auctions to slam where both hands have shown doubt, partscore competitions where it seems they have overbid and more. In those cases it is often best to lead passively, in an attempt to make every honour count.
  • There are three good reasons for leading trumps: you suspect the opponents have a problem making enough tricks and drawing their trumps cuts down on their ruffs, you have unprotected honours in every other suit and do not have a good alternative or you are looking for an extremely passive lead. As a general rule of thumb trump leads against high-level contracts are the most passive of all, because it is the suit opponents are most likely to have their values in (and, by implication, the suit partner is most likely to be broke in). Personally I think people lead trumps way too often, and one of the points I warn pickup partners about is that I will rarely do so unless there is a strong indication it is likely to gain.
In my limited experience most textbooks on leads and returns place great emphasis on active leads. This is somewhat reasonable, as these are frequently best. But it can leave one shook if partner opts for a passive lead, which may be indicated on the auction or hand.
If you think this is helpful I would be more than happy to go into more detail and/or recommend (and recommend against) some books on leads and defence.


Thx David. I'm keen for any real discussion on real bridge and leads because I'm being forced into bad habits

I'm forgetting how to signal too
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#5 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-October-18, 19:12

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-October-18, 05:40, said:

I find that the stuff that GIB does translates into real Bridge sometimes.
Regarding leads, if GIB leads low then it's 3rd down or 4th down - mostly.


This means that the rule of 11 is really helpful with GIB.


If it leads high it comes from a doubleton - sometimes.
If it can lead a singleton in a suit contract it will.
If you make a lead directing bid it will assume you have an honour but the chances of getting a lead of that suit are about 50/50.
It will often lead trumps in a suit contract if it has nothing better - particularly if it has a singleton and it rates you for a 4/4 fit - eg after a Stayman sequence.


Regarding discards. It could be my imagination but GIB seems to prefer to discard high if it makes no difference.


I would also like expert opinion on returning leads.


Trying to figure out GIB leads makes me work much harder in FTF but it also means my own signalling is hopeless guesswork - mostly.


Thx Paul. Someone else keen to do things right and not be corrupted by GiB

You have obviously studied GiB's leads more closely than me. Mine is purely based on perception without data
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#6 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 02:09

I had a fun lead problem yesterday:
Which lead would you choose?
Spoiler

I thoroughly enjoyed the contents of the books by Bird & Anthias on opening leads. The presentation was dry and repetitive, but the information they present is unique and insightful. The book "Opening Leads" by Robert Ewen is also very good, if a bit old-fashioned. The latter also spends quite some pages discussing lead and continuation agreements (third best, MUD, Polish leads, fourth best, low encouraging, Rusinov, Journalist, what have you), which is important but usually not critical. Personally I would place the most emphasis on deciding which suit to lead on any given auction, and then pick which card within the suit should be lead according to whatever lead agreements you have. Not all lead agreements are equally good, but most of them are very close so all of them are usually fine (my personal lead agreements are Polish - 2nd/4th best depending on situation, with some slightly non-standard leads from honours). Note that, on the example hand, unless you decide to lead the queen or ten of clubs or the jack of diamonds (and please don't lead the jack of spades) it matters very little which exact spot card you choose from a given suit, provided partner has a chance of reading it.
The same applies to returning/switching - sometimes there are opportunities for technical plays such as pinning an honour or giving declarer a guess, but most of the time the choice of suit (i.e. whether or not to change tacks) is far more important than the specific card returned. I personally return 'as if we led from the original holding', which I think is solid but not common. I think most people return 'reverse attitude', i.e. small promises an honour and high denies one.
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#7 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 08:15

View Postthepossum, on 2021-October-18, 03:12, said:

<snip>
For me, passive is the last resort
<snip>

This is wrong.
Active leads are good, if the opponents have something to spare to make their contract.
Passive leads are good, if the opponents have nothing to spare to make their contract.

Active leads try to find the right suit with less information at once, passive leads delay the
decision, what the right suit is, in the hope, that the squandered time gets off setted by the gained
information from seeing dummy.

The game evolved, games get bid more agressive, the part score get also more heavily contested.
The result is, that the contracts you usually have to fight against, are contracts that are bid
on holdings, which dont have a lot of to spare.
Which option do you think will give you the best chance of regular beating close contracts?
Which is important playing IMPs.
Passive leads are also good at MP scoring.

Now important to note: There are cases, that demand active leads, but most of the time going passive
will not be wrong.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#8 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 14:21

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2021-October-19, 08:15, said:

Active leads are good, if the opponents have something to spare to make their contract.
Passive leads are good, if the opponents have nothing to spare to make their contract.

[...]

Now important to note: There are cases, that demand active leads, but most of the time going passive
will not be wrong.
I think this is slightly inaccurate in an important way. Passive leads help if the opponents have to play your suit later anyway. In any particular suit combination is it often better if the opponents have to lead it, because second and fourth hand to a trick have an advantage over first and third hand.
However, it is very frequently the case that the opponents do not have to play my suit. This is why 3NT is sometimes also called a "race for our 5 tricks against their 9".
I think going passive is often wrong, often enough that active leads are best on balance. Of course even better is knowing when to go active and knowing when to go passive.
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#9 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 19:14

We all have our style

I am an attacking player

But if there isn't an attacking option then I will consider more passive approaches
I also hardly ever lead trumps. I figure they can be useful to the defence too
What amuses me is the combination of a singleton and trump lead by GiB at times - misses the point in an amusing way

The other thing is I keep being derailed by thinking that I can lead back to something worthwhile. I can't get that behaviour out of my head at all
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#10 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 20:46

Particularly at MPs with a decent partner, I'm one of the most passive leaders on the planet.

Try to not give away anything on the opening lead when you have the least info to go on and hope to outplay declarer later. Of course this requires a partner who can figure out the hand without much information from your opening lead.

I really should learn to play Smith (or reverse Smith) and find a partner who will also. That'll give partner a little more info as to whether my lead is real or fake.
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#11 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 23:49

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-19, 14:21, said:

<snip>
This is why 3NT is sometimes also called a "race for our 5 tricks against their 9".
I think going passive is often wrong, often enough that active leads are best on balance. <snip>

You could argue, that the required strength for bidding the 3NT game did not get lowered significant
over time, the most common seq. being

1NT - 3NT

1NT - 2NT
3NT

You may also add. a Stayman inquiries.

The first auction clearly asks for an active lead, either responder has more than enough, or
he will have a long minor suit, the second asks for a passive leads.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#12 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-October-20, 00:53

According to B&A 1NT-3NT calls for the lead of a major.
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#13 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-20, 03:09

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-October-20, 00:53, said:

According to B&A 1NT-3NT calls for the lead of a major.

Yes, and it makes sense.
But this is an answer to a different question, the question: Which suit should you lead?
And most books about leads have a clear priority with regards to the order of the question,
you have to answer, when deciding what to lead.
First: Active / Passive?
Second: Which Suit?

Coming back to the B&A suggestion:
You want to go active, i.e. you want to develop tricks for your side, and the best shot to
develop tricks for your side is a major suit attack, due to the fact, that it is unlikely,
that they have a 8 card major suit fit, meaning our side has quite often 6+ cards in one
or both majors.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#14 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-October-20, 03:15

View Postthepossum, on 2021-October-19, 19:14, said:

We all have our style

I am an attacking player
Style doesn't come into it. Sometimes passive leads are better, sometimes active leads are better, and you should always try to identify which is the case. But I do think that, on balance, active leads are more often the best choice. It makes sense to focus on those first when studying up on leads and returns.

View Postakwoo, on 2021-October-19, 20:46, said:

I really should learn to play Smith (or reverse Smith) and find a partner who will also. That'll give partner a little more info as to whether my lead is real or fake.
Traditionally (reverse) Smith echos are only played by the partner of the person on lead.
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#15 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-20, 03:27

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-19, 02:09, said:

I had a fun lead problem yesterday:
Which lead would you choose?
Spoiler

<snip>

Spoiler

With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#16 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2021-October-20, 07:19

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-20, 03:15, said:

Style doesn't come into it. Sometimes passive leads are better, sometimes active leads are better, and you should always try to identify which is the case. But I do think that, on balance, active leads are more often the best choice. It makes sense to focus on those first when studying up on leads and returns.

Traditionally (reverse) Smith echos are only played by the partner of the person on lead.

Actually, opening leader also uses Smith if the lead is ambiguous, 4th best from no honor. Maybe after seeing dummy he wishes a switch.

The proper line of defense will usually tell you what the opening lead should be except for some special lead situations.

How The Experts Win at Bridge, 1997, Burt Hall and Lynn Rose-Hall:
1. Forcing Declarer - Lead partnership's strongest suit
Declarer has a 2-suited hand
Defense has 4 trumps in one hand
4-3 Trump hand
Long trump hand can be forced early
2. Active Defense - Lead partnership's strongest suit
Any time tricks can go away
Declarer's suits are breaking
Vigorous bidding (slam interest)
Long running suits
3. Passive Defense - Lead top of sequence or worthless suit [might finesse partner]
No evidence of strong side suit for declarer
Declarer is very strong, dummy very weak
Misfit or bad splits in key suits
No real suit to lead against NT
Defending 6NT and grand slams
4. Cutting down ruffing power - Lead a trump
Mere suit preference taken, trump stack, misfits
Dummy denied NT, dummy bid 3 suits
You control side suit(s), opponents are sacrificing
5. Creating trump tricks for the defense - Lead FROM or TO shortness
Short in any unbid suit, long in opponent's side suit (bid AND raised), weak hand
Trump promotion or trump uppercut
Special Situations
Gambling NT - Lead an Ace to find dummy's weakness and partner's signal
Notrump Slams - Passive lead
Suit grand Slams - A trump
Special doubles - Varies with the bidding

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#17 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-20, 08:28

Something to consider when deciding between active and passive leads is the concept of tempo. Tempo in bridge is best understood as the ability to act first.

Virtually all expert advice will say to make aggressive leads against a small slam. Tempo is the reason. In a small slam, the opponents are confident they can make 12 tricks. That means there may be only one trick available to the defense if the opponents are allowed to play at their own pace. Therefore, the defense has to use the opening lead - the tempo of that lead - to try to establish a second trick before the declarer can establish his 12 tricks.

A passive lead transfers that tempo back to declarer. If there is no great hurry to establish tricks, then the tempo is not critical. Think of a two-way finesse for a queen and getting it right is the only way to make the contract.

I believe understanding and applying to leads the thinking of tempo gains and tempo losses may be more helpful than thinking active or passive. If it sounds like you need to retain your tempo make an aggressive lead. If not, try not to give anything away on opening lead and let declarer have the tempo..
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