BBO Discussion Forums: Two problems - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Two problems rotating table and the undo 'feature'

#1 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,536
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2021-August-25, 02:50

I like the change in Prime where I get to declare any hand I contract for.
But, unlike everywhere else in BBO, if my partner robot 'wins' the auction, the whole table spins around.
Because this is different, I have to readjust (in my tiny) mind any opposition bidding.
Also, it's exhausting having to get out of my seat and move to the other side all the time.


The other quirk is that if I set up a teaching table to practice a different method and am seated, say North and South, the undo 'feature' doesn't work.
It does work for anyone I'm practising with - but not for me.
I don't know if this happens anywhere else.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
0

#2 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,638
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2021-August-25, 14:41

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-August-25, 02:50, said:

I like the change in Prime where I get to declare any hand I contract for.
But, unlike everywhere else in BBO, if my partner robot 'wins' the auction, the whole table spins around.
Because this is different, I have to readjust (in my tiny) mind any opposition bidding.
Also, it's exhausting having to get out of my seat and move to the other side all the time.


I agree that it is stressful to the player and spectators (BBO should indicate clearly what is going on) but it occurs elsewhere in robot play, not only Prime which I have never joined.
0

#3 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,536
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2021-August-25, 15:01

View Postpescetom, on 2021-August-25, 14:41, said:

I agree that it is stressful to the player and spectators (BBO should indicate clearly what is going on) but it occurs elsewhere in robot play, not only Prime which I have never joined.


I don't think the orientation changes anywhere else in BBO - and I play a lot of robot tournaments. This is the only place where if North is playing, then the North seat rotates to the bottom of the screen so that any bidding made by East is now on the Declarers right instead of left - it's rather discombobulating.

non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
0

#4 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,638
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2021-August-25, 15:09

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-August-25, 15:01, said:


I don't think the orientation changes anywhere else in BBO - and I play a lot of robot tournaments. This is the only place where if North is playing, then the North seat rotates to the bottom of the screen so that any bidding made by East is now on the Declarers right instead of left - it's rather discombobulating.



Maybe. About the only robot tournament I ever played is the Free Weekly Friday whatever and that certainly discombobulated me whenever it decided I had to substitute my robot partner. Can't remember exactly what happens, but I had no clue I had become declarer or that it was up to me to play from dummy. But then even after years it still looks to me that when I really am dummy in a non-robot tournament it is my turn to play.
0

#5 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,536
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2021-August-25, 15:23

View Postpescetom, on 2021-August-25, 15:09, said:

Maybe. About the only robot tournament I ever played is the Free Weekly Friday whatever and that certainly discombobulated me whenever it decided I had to substitute my robot partner. Can't remember exactly what happens, but I had no clue I had become declarer or that it was up to me to play from dummy. But then even after years it still looks to me that when I really am dummy in a non-robot tournament it is my turn to play.


The main thing that's discombobulating about the weekly free is that you always come last because all the other players have watched Peter Hollands video and know what to bid and whether or not their finesses will work.
It might be free and it might be weekly but any resemblance to a tournament is illusory.


non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
0

#6 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 20,826
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-August-26, 09:04

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-August-25, 15:01, said:


I don't think the orientation changes anywhere else in BBO - and I play a lot of robot tournaments. This is the only place where if North is playing, then the North seat rotates to the bottom of the screen so that any bidding made by East is now on the Declarers right instead of left - it's rather discombobulating.


That's not what happens. If the North robot becomes declarer, the human is put into the North seat to play it. The orientation of the table stays the same so that it's consistent with the bidding.

When we first created "human declares", we did rotate everything, but it made the bidding confusing. So we changed it to this way.

#7 User is offline   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,383
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-August-26, 14:11

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-August-25, 15:23, said:

The main thing that's discombobulating about the weekly free is that you always come last because all the other players have watched Peter Hollands video and know what to bid and whether or not their finesses will work.
It might be free and it might be weekly but any resemblance to a tournament is illusory.

This is not true at all. You are not compared against other people who are playing the free weekly tournament and have had a chance to cheat.

You are being compared against a fixed set of players who played the hand in an old tournament, well before it showed up as the weekly free.

(You'll see Pete is being compared against the same set of players you are, so they couldn't have played it before him!)

It's arguably the best robot game on BBO precisely because you *can* compare yourself accurately to someone like Pete.
1

#8 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,536
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2021-August-26, 16:17

View Postbarmar, on 2021-August-26, 09:04, said:

That's not what happens. If the North robot becomes declarer, the human is put into the North seat to play it. The orientation of the table stays the same so that it's consistent with the bidding.

When we first created "human declares", we did rotate everything, but it made the bidding confusing. So we changed it to this way.

The top screenshot shows me South attempting to force north to bid.
The bottom screenshot shows North at the bottom after play starts with me declaring in the North seat,

Everything rotates - Prime is the only place where I've seen this happen.
Posted Image
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
0

#9 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,536
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2021-August-26, 16:28

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-August-26, 14:11, said:

This is not true at all. You are not compared against other people who are playing the free weekly tournament and have had a chance to cheat.

You are being compared against a fixed set of players who played the hand in an old tournament, well before it showed up as the weekly free.

(You'll see Pete is being compared against the same set of players you are, so they couldn't have played it before him!)

It's arguably the best robot game on BBO precisely because you *can* compare yourself accurately to someone like Pete.


Peter Hollands video showing him playing Instant tourney 311 is posted now in the messages sidebar.
The same tourney is available to be played right now.
As I said - I can watch the video first and then play the tournament after seeing where all the cards are.
This is my point. It isn't very satisfying to play a game where some contestants may have seen all the hands before they start playing.


There is also the problem that people can play the tourney multiple times until they get it right.
So not really a competition but a bit of practice.
This is where I agree that it is a good robot, something or other but not a game in the sense that any reasonable person would understand the term.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
0

#10 User is offline   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,383
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-August-26, 17:18

See my post again. Yes, people can play the tournament multiple times, including after they've watched the video.

But you're never compared against those players. Instant tournaments reuse hands from an old robot tournament that was played under normal conditions.

You're compared against players who played that original tournament and thus only had one shot; the same set that Pete is compared against.
0

#11 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,536
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2021-August-26, 19:27

Strangely, when I replay the hand afterwards the seats are in their normal (South at the bottom) orientation with my name in the South seat but it plays through as if the North robot is Declarer.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
0

#12 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,536
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2021-August-26, 20:45

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-August-26, 17:18, said:

See my post again. Yes, people can play the tournament multiple times, including after they've watched the video.

But you're never compared against those players. Instant tournaments reuse hands from an old robot tournament that was played under normal conditions.

You're compared against players who played that original tournament and thus only had one shot; the same set that Pete is compared against.


I agree, we are both seeing the same thing.
The issue is not where the boards come from; the point is that it is possible - as you also point out - to see all hands before you start playing.
This makes it an excellent teaching exercise.
I also enjoy seeing how an expert thinks about the play - so much so that I took some lessons from Pete.
In any event, it's always fun playing with the robots because you get to see some truly wonderful bidding when you try crazy things.
I just played the IT and here's what happened on board 7.

What does GIB have for the 4NT bid?


Spoiler

non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
0

#13 User is offline   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,383
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-August-26, 21:33

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-August-26, 20:45, said:

The issue is not where the boards come from; the point is that it is possible - as you also point out - to see all hands before you start playing.

Right - but that only affects you, not the other people on the leaderboard.

You were saying you would come last because the other players were peeking - that was the bit you understood wrongly. The scores you're trying to beat were earned fair and square.
0

#14 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,536
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2021-August-26, 22:48

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-August-26, 21:33, said:

Right - but that only affects you, not the other people on the leaderboard.

You were saying you would come last because the other players were peeking - that was the bit you understood wrongly. The scores you're trying to beat were earned fair and square.


Correct. Glad we cleared that up.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
0

#15 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,536
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2021-September-18, 06:01

View Postbarmar, on 2021-August-26, 09:04, said:

That's not what happens. If the North robot becomes declarer, the human is put into the North seat to play it. The orientation of the table stays the same so that it's consistent with the bidding.

When we first created "human declares", we did rotate everything, but it made the bidding confusing. So we changed it to this way.


I rejoined Prime today - need practice - and the same problem is still there:


Posted Image
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
0

#16 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 20,826
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-September-18, 20:41

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-September-18, 06:01, said:

I rejoined Prime today - need practice - and the same problem is still there:

I was talking about what happens in robot tournaments, not regular bridge tables (there's no difference between playing with robots in Prime and any other bridge table).

We don't do human-declares the same way at regular bridge tables because there can also be other humans at the table, and the human-robot swap isn't always North-South.

#17 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,536
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2021-September-18, 21:12

View Postbarmar, on 2021-September-18, 20:41, said:

I was talking about what happens in robot tournaments, not regular bridge tables (there's no difference between playing with robots in Prime and any other bridge table).

We don't do human-declares the same way at regular bridge tables because there can also be other humans at the table, and the human-robot swap isn't always North-South.


OK ty.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

2 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users