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bid versus bid and play

#1 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 10:43

Recently pard and I failed to reach a cold slam, so I decided to give it to the bots.
In prime I opened a bidding table and uploaded the hand:

https://tinyurl.com/ye23sajw

Ok, the bots didn't get there either.



Then I tried the teaching table:



https://tinyurl.com/yzyzkk8n

Ok, now they bid the slam. And they made it, of course. I might post this hand elsewhere for comments about the bidding, here I am simply asking why the bots bid differently if they are also going to be playing it.
Ken
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#2 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 14:08

It's not related to the table type. Advanced robots (unlike basic bots) run simulations during the bidding to decide whether to deviate from the book bid. Outside of a tournament setting, these simulations will differ each time the hand is played. So they may bid the hand differently each time you give it to them.
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#3 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 14:52

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-May-23, 14:08, said:

It's not related to the table type. Advanced robots (unlike basic bots) run simulations during the bidding to decide whether to deviate from the book bid. Outside of a tournament setting, these simulations will differ each time the hand is played. So they may bid the hand differently each time you give it to them.


This is not correct.
You keep making this same wrong explanation but it has nothing to do with the problem that Ken is alluding to and which I have also complained about.
You are providing an answer to a different question - presumably because you do not understand the problem.


It is obviously related to the table type BECAUSE the different tables are (likely) using different types of GIB.
In the Prime Club - which I have just left again - hands are dropped on the table from all over BBO.
As barmar commented elsewhere (I'm paraphrasing) "we make NO effort to ensure that hands played in Prime are all played by advanced robots" - even though the players in Prime think that are in an area where only advanced GIB is used.
IMO this sloppy approach to a paid service is completely unsatisfactory.


It makes paying to play in an area that is supposed to have only advanced GIB completely pointless because you don't get to compare your bidding and play against the same program.


The situation is even worse on the teaching tale in Prime.
The reason that I wanted to use the Prime teaching table is BECAUSE the Prime area is advertised as a place where I would get so-called 'advanced' GIB.
This is obviously not true.
The teaching table seems to only have basic GIB. Why? Because the way that a hand is bid on the teaching table is always exactly the same and different to the way the same hand is played against advanced robots in (for example) Daylong tournaments.



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#4 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 14:59

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-May-23, 14:08, said:

It's not related to the table type. Advanced robots (unlike basic bots) run simulations during the bidding to decide whether to deviate from the book bid. Outside of a tournament setting, these simulations will differ each time the hand is played. So they may bid the hand differently each time you give it to them.


I thought of that but I don't think it is it. I ran both the bidding table version and the teaching table version several times to check. The bidding table version always bid it the same, stopping in 4H, the teaching table version always bid it the same, getting to 6H. I did it at least 4 times in each version so it seems pretty unlikely that it was just do to the chance that simulations can produce different results.

I agree that it is possible, so if no other explanation is forthcoming I will try it a few more times in each version.

Or maybe I misunderstanding the nature of the simulation.

I was also a little surprised that in the auction

2NT 3D
3H 4C
4D

that the 4D bid was explained as showing heart support. My guess would have been that it showed club support. Sometimes we are dealt two hearts and four clubs and it would be nice to say that at the 4 level. When dealt three hearts and three clubs, I can show heart support at the 4 level by bidding 4H.
When the bot has four clubs and two hearts does he raise 4C to 5C? Not unreasonable but I was still a little surprised that 4D shows heart support (and presumably a diamond control and some interest in slam).


I am interested in how this simulation could be the explanation.

I will run each table version four more times and get back to you. It's not critical to my life, or to anything, but I am curious.


Ok, I have done it. The 4 bidding table tries all led to 4H, the 4 teaching table tries all led to 6H.
Just to be safe, I closed the table and re-opened it after each run, so it wasn't, or I don't think it was, just a matter of the bots saying "yeah we just did that". Well, they had, but we were at a new table.


Ken
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#5 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 17:05

View Postkenberg, on 2021-May-23, 14:59, said:

I thought of that but I don't think it is it. I ran both the bidding table version and the teaching table version several times to check. The bidding table version always bid it the same, stopping in 4H, the teaching table version always bid it the same, getting to 6H. I did it at least 4 times in each version so it seems pretty unlikely that it was just do to the chance that simulations can produce different results.

Interesting. In that case, perhaps there's no such thing as a 'prime bidding table'. I don't actually see this listed in the prime features at all, and after all, bidding tables are available to everyone for free (with no option to put advanced robots in them).
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#6 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 17:33

Great.
Now you are beginning to see the problem.
People like me that enjoy playing robot Bridge - I know it isn't for everyone - use the Prime area to practise with the advanced version of GIB.
If you go into the Prime area you will see that most tables are occupied by the host sitting South and three robots.
In this way you can compare your bidding and play to 16 other people that bid and play the hand - usually but not always - with human South and three robots.

The specific problem arises because the Prime area is advertised as a place where you are playing with advanced GIB.
You are usually not you are playing at a hybrid table where your GIB is advanced but the comparison is being made with other people many of whom are playing the other version of GIB.
This is why playing in Prime is pointless. You need to compare your result to optimum contracts using the Bridge-solver extension because comparing your result to others using the scoring feature provided is not an accurate way of seeing if you played well - or in my case badly.

The bidding and teaching tables don't seem to use advanced robots at all.
This is really annoying because I like to see how advanced robots would tackle hands that I play in Daylongs.

The fact that many people regard robot bridge as a loathsome and contemptible past-time played by "BBO experts" is of no interest to me. I like it and I don't get what is advertised.
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#7 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 18:29

I'll do a step by step of my actions for anyone who wishes to repeat the experiment.
I think you will need to be a Prime member for this to work

1. Click on BBO Prime
2. Click on Prime Bridge Club
3. Clik on Start Table
4. I click on Invisible as a table preference since I am here to explore, not plau5.
5. Look to where it says Scoring. The default is imps, you can find Teaching or Bidding, Let's say we set it at Teaching.
6. Click again on start table.
7. Now you have to decide which hand you plan to have the bots play. I used board 4 from my acbl game of last Friday. You so to get tis, I went to History, clicked on Recent Tournaments, then selected the acbl tournament of last Friday and opened that.
Then I clicked on board 4 There is an option to Export that hand. Not yet, but it's ready/
8. I now click on Robot for each of the four spots on the table.
9. The Robots are now playing random hands.
10. Now when I click on Export for the hand of interest, one of the options is to Upload Deal to Table. I do that.
11. Now the robots play the hand I have uploaded. In this case they bid and make 6H. If I had used Bidding instead of Teaching at step 5 it would have bid the hand, stopping at 4H.

So that's how you can have the Robots play a hand. I believe that these are the Advanced Robots but perhaps I am wrong.


While I am listing steps, I might as well add in one more that I used.
I wanted to paste the hand into my post.
I leave the History option in place but I click on the back arrow and my hand, the one I played with my name on it, from last Friday vanishes. The hand that the robot played is still there. Under History I now click on My Table.I can now see the hand that the Robots played while I was uploading the hand I am interested in, and I can see the hand that I am interested in as it was played by the Robots.
Again I use export and this time I ask for the hand viewer link, I copy it and then I can paste it:
https://tinyurl.com/yjr4ecq6

So that's what I did, and the Teaching option for the table leads to a 6H contract, the Bidding option leads to a 4H contract.

I see it as a surprise, and I am curious. I might try other hands to see if Teaching and Bidding again lead to different results. Well, I might. Or might not. My wife already thinks bridge makes me a little crazy.
Ken
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#8 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 19:43

Yep, looking back at previous discussions, bidding tables only support basic bots (which are free there, regardless of whether you have a prime subscription or not). As opposed to teaching tables, which use the ones you have paid for. So there is no such thing as a 'prime bidding table'.
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#9 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 20:10

Your wife must be a friend of my wife!
Here is the method that I use (stolen from Nige1) to post in the Forum.
Open any tinyurl in a new tab and it will look like this: (your example)
'https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=st||pn|~~M1589owt,~~M8978vak,~~M6140x9p,~~M4824do6|md|2SQ53HKQT32D6CQJ83,ST2HJ4D9854CT7654,SAKHA86DAK732CK92,SJ98764H975DQJTCA|sv|b|rh||ah|Board%204|mb|P|mb|2N|an|Two%20NT%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20!C;%202-5%20!D;%202-5%20!H;%202-5%20!S;%2020-21%20HCP%20|mb|P|mb|3D!|an|Jacoby%20transfer%20--%205+%20!H%20|mb|P|mb|3H|an|Transfer%20completed%20to%20H%20--%202-5%20!C;%202-5%20!D;%202-5%20!H;%202-5%20!S;%2020-21%20HCP%20|mb|P|mb|4C|an|4+%20!C;%205+%20!H;%208+%20HCP%20|mb|P|mb|4D|an|Support%20for%20H%20--%202-5%20!C;%202-5%20!D;%203-5%20!H;%202-5%20!S;%2021%20HCP;%2022+%20total%20points%20|mb|P|mb|4N|an|Blackwood%20(H)%20--%204+%20!C;%205+%20!H;%2010+%20total%20points%20|mb|P|mb|5C|an|Zero%20or%20three%20key%20cards%20--%202-5%20!C;%202-5%20!D;%203-5%20!H;%202-5%20!S;%2021%20HCP;%2022+%20total%20points%20|mb|P|mb|6H|an|4+%20!C;%205+%20!H;%2010+%20total%20points%20|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|CA|pc|C3|pc|C4|pc|C2|pc|S6|pc|S5|pc|ST|pc|SA|pc|SK|pc|SJ|pc|S3|pc|S2|pc|H6|pc|H9|pc|HK|pc|H4|pc|H3|pc|HJ|pc|HA|pc|H7|pc|H8|pc|H5|pc|H2|pc|D9|pc|DA|pc|DQ|pc|D6|pc|D8|pc|DK|pc|DT|pc|C8|pc|D4|pc|D2|pc|DJ|pc|HQ|pc|D5|pc|CQ|pc|C7|pc|C9|pc|S9|pc|CJ|pc|CT|pc|CK|pc|S7|pc|D7|pc|S8|pc|SQ|pc|C5|pc|D3|pc|S4|pc|HT|pc|C6|

now remove "https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?" and add hv= at the start and "300|300|" at the end.
then write whatever you want and finally add '[/hv]' the hv= and the /hv must be in square brackets but it doesn't look right when I try to add them here.
You can use the same approach with any hand that you make on the Forum.
Here is a link to the way it looks in a google doc - which will make more sense - http://bit.ly/HowToForum


so that now it will look like this!

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#10 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 03:11

When I left the "Prime Club" a few days ago, I was asked to explain why.
I tried in email to explain the points made above:
It turns out that BBO disavows GIB - which was news to me!
Here's the response I received:

Quote

Good evening
We have not programmed the GIBs. They are a third party software and the system notes explain how their are programmed to play and defend

They only play their own system (2/1) and expect the humans to bid accordingly.

So you have to make sure you are not misleading them with your bid, as they are programmed to take every bid we humans make seriously.

You need to be familiar with GIB's convention card, read what each bid means by clicking on it and hover your mouse over any bid you're about to make before actually clicking on the suit to read how GIB will understand that bid.

These links might help you understand the robot bidding:

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#11 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 07:58

Ok, I accept that the robots at the bidding table are different from the robots at the Teaching table. In some sense, it had to be true because they produced different results.
And perhaps I am seeing why this is so, at least sort of. It's third-party software. It's not a great explanation, factual though it is.

Let' see if I can say something useful. I am a Prime member, and at least for now, I am sticking with it. Others have not joined. Some (Piloski is one, I see) have joined and dropped out. So saying what I like, and what I hope for, might be useful.

About me: I learned to play bridge in 1961. I was a married grad student living on my teaching assistant salary so I could afford a deck of cards but not much more. I joined the ACBL in the 70s, I have sometimes played a lot, sometimes not much. I have somewhat more than 2500 acbl points, I think this makes me a Ruby, but I don't really care. Otherwise put, I enjoy bridge but I have never planned on becoming great at it. This might help someone understand what I would hope for. And I think there are a lot who are like me.

Bote my 11 steps in having the bot play the hand I discussed. One or two steps would be nice.
That is, I would like to be able to have the bots, the upscale bots, bid and play hands that I have played in a tourney and then be able to copy the result and send it off to someone for discussion.
It's not a matter of whether the bots are or are not smarter than I am. It could be a nice starting point for discussion.
For example:
I noted that after 2NT-3D-3H-4C-4D I was surprised to see that the bots say this shows heart support. Compare it with 1NT-2D-2H-3C-3D. Here it seems to me this should deny holding three hearts. After 3C the final contract could be in NT, in h, or in C. Best to settle in on the strain early on, and we can do this by saying 3H sets hearts, anything else denies heart support. Now when it starts with 2NT we are up a level and it gets trickier but still having the bot auction to look at can lead to a discussion: Should we play that 4D there sets H as trump?"

Yes, I realize that we could all read Bridge World Standard and I do, a bit. But neither I nor my partners are up for a detailed study of it. We are up for taking cases as they arise and talking a bit about them. Being able to have the bots do something could help in the discussion..

So it would be good to easily have the bots play a hand that I played, four bots all at the table.

Along these lines, I note that even in my 11 step effort, I was lucky. It was not a contested auction. IN the teaching table I am offered two options: opponents pass throughout or I can choose the opponents bidding for them I would like the obvious third option: Let the four bots all choose their won calls.

And of course this applies to lay as well as bidding.

Yes it's third-party software. But that's it, end of story? I assume BBO can influence what a third party does by saying things such as "Here is what our users would like".

i understand that I could listen to lectures, and sometimes I do. But way back in elementary school in 1950 or so I decided that I was more interested in what some teachers said than I was in what others said, and even the ones I liked I listened t cautiously. I like to think for myself and discuss thoughts with friends.

The suggestions I make could help me pursue my interests. And, as I say, I think I am not a lone wolf in these thoughts.

I'll let it be with that.
Ken
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