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Derailment

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 17:29

Playing 2/1, 12-14nt, 4sgf




1:1 normal
2:2   2=4sgf , normal. South knows partner is unbalanced or they would have opened or rebid 1nt
3:3    3 normal, patterning out? 3 derailment. Partner can't have 3 card support in this auction?
4:5

Over 3 south needs to bid 4, now we may get to 6.
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#2 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 17:55

I think North should bid 3NT over 2.
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 18:02

View Postblackshoe, on 2021-March-01, 17:55, said:

I think North should bid 3NT over 2.


Or if not should do so over 3, now S bids 4 and all is clear
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#4 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 18:02

I will be quite happy to settle in 3NT over 5 on this hand. I don't even especially want to be in 6 seeing both hands.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 18:05

View PostTylerE, on 2021-March-01, 18:02, said:

I will be quite happy to settle in 3NT over 5 on this hand. I don't even especially want to be in 6 seeing both hands.


It's a pretty good slam, clubs 3-2, diamonds 4-2 seem to be about what's required, or diamonds 3-3 (or doubleton Q), clubs 4-1.
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#6 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 18:18

For me this just seems like a 2NT bid over 2 (3NT shouldn't be fast arrival here?). I don't see the benefit in complicating the auction with KJx raise - I would interpret that as 1444 or 0454.

But in any case, South has to raise clubs at some point prior to the auction getting to the 5 level.
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#7 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 18:50

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-March-01, 18:05, said:

It's a pretty good slam, clubs 3-2, diamonds 4-2 seem to be about what's required, or diamonds 3-3 (or doubleton Q), clubs 4-1.


I don't want to be in a "pretty good" slam at matchpoints that the field is obviously not bidding. I expect to score a 75%+ board from declarer play in 3N on a hand like this a lot of the time, certainly not below average.
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#8 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 19:15

View PostTylerE, on 2021-March-01, 18:50, said:

I don't want to be in a "pretty good" slam at matchpoints that the field is obviously not bidding. I expect to score a 75%+ board from declarer play in 3N on a hand like this a lot of the time, certainly not below average.


I forgot to mention, this isn't a hand from the club where you can get top boards for playing in a safe contract, everyone will get their overtricks in 3nt.
We have to find the best contract.
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And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#9 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 19:27

I do not believe such a club exists..

Sure, some hands will be flat no matter what, but most will not.

I like my matchpoint odds against all but the strongest MP field (which from your posts, your's isn't, not even close).
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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 20:48

Im surprised that only one previous poster suggested that opener should bid 2N over 2H. I think that its automatic to do so.

Then south, knowing that opener is probably 1=3=5=4, since with 2=2=5=4 hed rebid 1N with hearts stopped (depending on style, some might be 4=5 minors), responder should rebid 3C. Bidding 3S, over either 2N or 3H, shows 6 good spades, still interested in a spade contract, up to and including slams, despite the known shortness.

Opener has a bad non-minimum with no Aces, so should try to slow things down via 3N and then south, who does have the aces, has to make a decision. Since x Kxx Kxxxx Kxxx has some (poor) play for slam and opener has more than this, I cant see passing. Id bid 4D to force a 4H call from North. If North cant bid 4H, then well play 5C...after all, the best hearts opener can have are QJx, and if he has Qxx were likely failing in 4N.

Over the 4H cue weve coerced from opener, and absent special agreements, Id just bid 6C. If opener has x KQx KQxxx Qxxx, we are likely going down, but neither life nor slam bidding comes with guarantees.

JB: there are times when it is correct to pattern out with some 5431 hands, showing the 3 card suit along the way.

Say one held AKxxx x KQxx Axx

1S. 1N
2D. 2N

Now, especially at imps, one can bid 3C. After all, responder might hold something like xx A10x Jxx KQJxx

It would be a shame to play 3N down on a heart lead while 6C is a decent contract.

But when opener could be 1=4=4=4 or 0=4=5=4, and responder could have 4 hearts, its a mistake for opener to pattern out with only 3 cards in the 3rd suit.
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#11 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 22:13

 mikeh, on 2021-March-01, 20:48, said:

I’m surprised that only one previous poster suggested that opener should bid 2N over 2H. I think that it’s automatic to do so.

 mikeh, on 2021-March-01, 20:48, said:

But when opener could be 1=4=4=4 or 0=4=5=4, and responder could have 4 hearts, it’s a mistake for opener to pattern out with only 3 cards in the 3rd suit.


While I understand this, I am very reluctant to bid 2N/2. I want to be playing this in or , isn't partner much better placed to play in nt?
Although I see we are in trouble if pard thinks I'm 1444/0454
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And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 22:16

 TylerE, on 2021-March-01, 19:27, said:

I do not believe such a club exists..

You're correct, it's a hypothetical club, let's say we are playing in the Bermuda Bowl.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#13 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 22:22

 jillybean, on 2021-March-01, 17:29, said:



1:1 normal
2:2   2=4sgf , normal. South knows partner is unbalanced or they would have opened or rebid 1nt
3:3    3 normal, patterning out? 3 derailment. Partner can't have 3 card support in this auction?
4:5

Over 3 south needs to bid 4, now we may get to 6.


Is 3 patterning out? Yes. But I don't agree with 3 with only three. If I were responder, I would expect to see something like 0=4=5=4.

That said, 3 is less than ideal.
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#14 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 22:38

 jillybean, on 2021-March-01, 22:13, said:

While I understand this, I am very reluctant to bid 2N/2. I want to be playing this in or , isn't partner much better placed to play in nt?

If you had an agreement that 3 only showed 3 - at the cost of missing your 4-4 heart fits - if South was looking for a heart stopper, don't you want the opponents to be leading into North's hand in 3NT?
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#15 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-March-01, 23:48

One of the things about matchpoints is that 3NT= ties 5=, and 3NT+1 beats 5+1. And the number of hands that can make 5 that can't make 3NT (and likely 4NT) are very small, and usually very obvious. "5m at matchpoints is an invitation to 6" is the joke.

Bidding minor slams at matchpoints is almost the hardest part of the game, because you have to decide at a very low level if you're willing to leave the safety of 3NT for a chance at a slam, knowing that if that chance is wrong, you're getting a bad score for stopping in 5. Yes, sometimes you can get out in 4NT with Kickback or the like, but that also loses if 9 tricks is the limit.

If you bid 3NT like "the rest of the room", you beat the ones in 6 when it doesn't make, and you beat the ones in 5 if you can squeeze out the tenth trick; and if your play is good enough for that club, then you're going to get the overtrick as often as the rest of the room. Sure, you lose to 6 making, but you'll have company, and you can survive the odd 40% board better than the odd 15% one.

At teams, like the BB, it's actually safer to go looking, because at worst you're -1 or -2 if it's wrong and you have to stop in 5. And sometimes the suit is safer than 3NT.

All that is theory only, not talking about this hand.

I think 2NT/2 is automatic, too. I have the heart stopper, I have zero interest in slam, if partner does, she has room to look. Partner bid 2 for a reason, and it wasn't just "We have game". Let's tell her what she likely wants to know first, and see what she wants to tell us. After 2NT, 3 seems auto, and we'll see from there. I like Mike's analysis (as is to be expected).
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-02, 04:27

 TylerE, on 2021-March-01, 18:50, said:

I don't want to be in a "pretty good" slam at matchpoints that the field is obviously not bidding. I expect to score a 75%+ board from declarer play in 3N on a hand like this a lot of the time, certainly not below average.


If you don't want to be in slams on one of two finesses which is about the equivalent of what this is, you're not bidding enough slams, you're also playing in a club that isn't challenging you if you're getting 75% for just playing 3N like a human being.

I didn't suggest 2N initially because I don't play 2/1 and assumed 3N would be 11-13 ish and 2N better than that with PFA, it seems that's not the case.
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#17 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2021-March-02, 05:01

3!h is not "patterning out". It is showing a four-card heart suit = maybe 6 KJ63 KJ92 KQ103.

2NT over 2 looks obvious.
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#18 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-March-02, 07:27

again why waste bid space? 2nt always after 2. bidding 3 after 2 could put you in a Moyse slam on 4/3 fit.
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#19 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-02, 12:56

 smerriman, on 2021-March-01, 22:38, said:

If you had an agreement that 3 only showed 3 - at the cost of missing your 4-4 heart fits - if South was looking for a heart stopper, don't you want the opponents to be leading into North's hand in 3NT?

We don't have an agreement that 3 shows 3. Yes, I want the 's coming through North in a nt contract, it is my singleton and potential lack of entries to South that make me reluctant to bid nt.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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