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missed game I found this hard to judge

#1 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-February-12, 16:49



MPs. I thought for a while after partner bid 4 whether or not to go for game. In the end I decided despite the huge diamond fit, I already strained to bid the first time, my spade singleton may be useless opposite partner's presumed suit, the opponents have done a fair amount of bidding, and it was likely I'd need a near perfect hand opposite for game to be decent. I did get the perfect hand opposite and 5 has icicles hanging off it. If partner held either black suit king slam is there. Was I too pessimistic?
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#2 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-February-12, 16:59

I think you were too pessimistic and should have trusted partner more: it would also help if he had something better than a non forcing 4 in the armoury.
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#3 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-February-12, 17:09

View PostAL78, on 2021-February-12, 16:49, said:

In the end I decided despite the huge diamond fit, I already strained to bid the first time

I think this is undervaluing the hand. Take away two diamonds and you have to decide whether to bid the first time, but your hand is two tricks better than that. And you have three hearts, so partner very likely has only one loser there.

Think of it another way, you've got good chances when partner has the SA, DK and either of the top two club honours. That's probably not a hand that would bid 4D.

IMO, South has the more interesting decision - what to do over 3D. I can see arguments for pass, double (game try), 3H, 4H and possibly outlier support for 4D.
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#4 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-February-12, 22:26

View PostAL78, on 2021-February-12, 16:49, said:

MPs. I thought for a while after partner bid 4 whether or not to go for game. In the end I decided despite the huge diamond fit, I already strained to bid the first time, my spade singleton may be useless opposite partner's presumed suit, the opponents have done a fair amount of bidding, and it was likely I'd need a near perfect hand opposite for game to be decent. I did get the perfect hand opposite and 5 has icicles hanging off it. If partner held either black suit king slam is there. Was I too pessimistic?

Yes, too pessimistic.

Partner should have something like 4=1=4=4. You chose to bid and now partner is showing extra strength, four or five , and a willingness to go game with anything extra at all from you; first-round trump control and ruffing values in the two black suits is definitely a little extra. The idea that the singleton may be useless seems unlikely.*

Worst-reasonable-case scenario with your hand is that partner has somehow ended up with a hand that will lose three black tricks and a before you can ruff in, doubled and down 2 for -500. If partner is willing to go 5 with three immediate losers in the black suits then it's partner's fault you were too high.

I'd expect to go down one doubled for -200 vs. a cold 4, and there's a decent chance it makes. If nothing else, it might push them to an unmakeable 5.

You were in for a penny as soon as you bid; you might as well go in for a pound when partner asks you to.

* Silly was the word that first occurred to me but why tempt the bidding-suggestion gods?
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#5 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2021-February-13, 03:03

Agree with other posters. East should have bid on.
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#6 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2021-February-13, 03:30

W should bid 4!H after hearing 3!D imo.
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#7 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-February-13, 03:50

AL78' MPs. I thought for a while after partner bid 4 whether or not to go for game. In the end I decided despite the huge diamond fit, I already strained to bid the first time, my spade singleton may be useless opposite partner's presumed suit, the opponents have done a fair amount of bidding, and it was likely I'd need a near perfect hand opposite for game to be decent. I did get the perfect hand opposite and 5 has icicles hanging off it. If partner held either black suit king slam is there. Was I too pessimistic?
++++++++++++++++++++
IMO, it's a close decision. 5 relies on lack of duplication e.g. reverse East's round-suit holdings and game is poorer. At IMPs, you could argue that stopping in 4 is like trying to land on a sixpence. But the scoring method is MPs, where plus-scores are golden.

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#8 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-February-13, 04:36

Ok, I agree I was too cowardly. I would have bid 5 comfortably at imps. I should expect no heart wastage (a 30 point pack), count seven diamonds and two heart ruffs for nine tricks, then I only need two black suit tricks from a partner that can freely raise me to the four level. I must stop worrying partner will have one of the worst hands opposite for their bidding.
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-February-13, 04:53

Are you playing lebensohl or equivalent over 1-x-2 ? you should be here.

I think you should bid 5.
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#10 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-February-13, 06:57

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-February-13, 04:53, said:

Are you playing lebensohl or equivalent over 1-x-2 ? you should be here.

I think you should bid 5.


No. I didn't know you could play lebensohl in that situation.
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-February-13, 07:19

View Postnige1, on 2021-February-13, 03:50, said:

IMO, it's a close decision. 5 relies on lack of duplication e.g. reverse East's round-suit holdings and game is poorer.

Reverse East's round-suit holdings and they will be bidding 4 making, I'm still not interested in the sixpence even at MP.
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#12 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2021-February-13, 16:33

All of you bidding 5 don't think West could have

Qxxx x KQxxx KQx
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#13 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-February-14, 00:11

View Postakwoo, on 2021-February-13, 16:33, said:

All of you bidding 5 don't think West could have

Qxxx x KQxxx KQx

We get some great results from playing partial minors but I'd be very unhappy with partner for raising me to 4 with that mess.
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#14 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-February-14, 00:43

All kinds of meat on the bones of this hand.

1H. Normal

Double. Normal

2H, not my choice.Iíd bid 3H, weak raise. I have 4 trump, no aces and no kings.

3D normal. If you think youíre stretching because you have only 4 hcp, learn to evaluate shape. Be, itís useful to play 2N here, after the opps bid and raise a major, as lebensohl. Had I the same hand with 2362 Iíd like to bid 2an, showing a desire to compete but lacking constructive values. Here, if 2N were available, I think itís close. But most pairs donít have that tool, so 3D is normal

3H. Normal. If partner had bid 3H, I might bid game, hoping to buy the hand, but I think thatís too optimistic with those black holdings. Besides, maybe partner has diamond length.

4D. If double, as a game try, is unavailable, as I expect it was, then itís close between 5D and 4D

If south had passed over 3D then 4D is pretty close to perfect, showing a hand looking for but not quite able to bid 5D. Note that partner might, for 3D, hold something like xx Qxx AJxxx xx where 5 has no legitimate play on most lies

As it is, the 3H bid deprives 4D of its purely invitational meaning. Yes, it shows a good hand for diamonds but picture KQxx x KQxx KQxx. Cant sell to 3H.

Over to east. If the opps are to be trusted, partner has either a stiff heart or better blacks than KQ, KQ.

The stiff spade is NOT a bad holding. Did we forget we have an 11 card trump fit?

While 5D, clear if 4D were purely invitational, is clear, itís close here.

But at imps, when game may be cold, close or hopeless, bid game at imps. Consider taking the plus only at mps
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#15 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-February-14, 05:34

NS system = ?
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-February-14, 06:42

View Postmorecharac, on 2021-February-14, 00:11, said:

We get some great results from playing partial minors but I'd be very unhappy with partner for raising me to 4 with that mess.


Why ? what does he need ? x, xxx, Axxxx(x), Axx(x) will often make 5, yes there are some hands that won't make game that he will raise on, but you have to take a balanced decision, and I think odds are in favour of both raising on that hand and the one in the OP.
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#17 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-February-14, 07:30

View Postakwoo, on 2021-February-13, 16:33, said:

All of you bidding 5 don't think West could have

Qxxx x KQxxx KQx

5D looks to be a good sacrifice against 4H if this is partner's hand. Surely a few tables will bid it.
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#18 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-February-14, 08:18

View Postnullve, on 2021-February-14, 05:34, said:

NS system = ?


I'm guessing Acol based, weak NT.
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#19 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-February-14, 08:31

View PostAL78, on 2021-February-14, 08:18, said:

I'm guessing Acol based, weak NT.

Then North's raise to only 2 makes sense. I think most posters here have assumed 5c majors.
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#20 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-February-14, 10:58

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-February-14, 06:42, said:

Why ? what does he need ? x, xxx, Axxxx(x), Axx(x) will often make 5, yes there are some hands that won't make game that he will raise on, but you have to take a balanced decision, and I think odds are in favour of both raising on that hand and the one in the OP.

She definitely needs more than two aces to make the initial takeout double.
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