[pclayton]

Mike and I had this auction come up tonight and I wanted to know what everyone else thought:


[All Vul, IMPS]


North....East....South....West
---------- --------- Pass......1♠
3♥........3♠........5♥.......(???)

Would you take this pass as forcing? Why or why not?

[keylime]

I don't only because I could be bidding three spades on like 3 trumps and a seven count with short hearts. If pard has the big hand, they gotta double to punish.

I can't see this as a FP situation - then again advance sacs are brutal.

[HeartA]

I watched the play. Pass seems forcing because opp's 5H was obviously a sac. Yet I talked to Mike that pass could be passed out and dbl is better.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

i think pass is not forcing, since 3S
may not even promise inv. stength,
i.e. it could have been made on a
hand, which would have made only
a single raise, without the intervention.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[joker_gib]

P_Marlowe, on May 30 2005, 02:01 AM, said:

Hi,

i think pass is not forcing, since 3S
may not even promise inv. stength,
i.e. it could have been made on a
hand, which would have made only
a single raise, without the intervention.

With kind regards
Marlowe

I tend to agree with Marlowe !

Vul all, this is not clear that this is our board even if the 5♥ bid seems to be a sac.

Alain

[Walddk]

Definitely not forcing. Many tend to see forcing pass ghosts everywhere. For all I know they could be making, and if I don't think they can, I will double (unless I play the Italian method where pass asks partner to double, whereas a double by you is a wish to compete if partner's hand is suited for it).

If I have a clear direction, I just bid 5♠. Nothing forcing about pass unless I have a special agreement (like the Italians).

Roland

[mike777]

Well I took not one view on this hand but 3 that many may disagree with.

1) Many have pointed out p may not even have invite hand, so what does 3s show?
2) What does P bid with more? What are the response ranges here?
3) If responder has one heart and 4HCP would that change your answers considering OPENER has not doubled or bid 5s?
4) What does opener have if they bid:
a*=pass
b*=double
c*=5spades
What is strongest slam try and what is to play?
IF double is strongest what is responder suppose to bid 5 or 6 spades with and when do they pass?

[flytoox]

Definitely not forcing. Pd's 3S could be stretching. If he has limit raise strength, he should jump to 4S after 3H. I really dont see any reason to play it as forcing pass. With unfavorable vul., you might argue for forcing pass.

[flytoox]

HeartA, on May 30 2005, 06:48 AM, said:

Pass seems forcing because opp's 5H was obviously a sac.

Why do you think it is sac.? Both are vul., there is no evidence we have better hand than opps.

[pclayton]

flytoox, on May 30 2005, 04:35 AM, said:

HeartA, on May 30 2005, 06:48 AM, said:

Pass seems forcing because opp's 5H was obviously a sac.

Why do you think it is sac.? Both are vul., there is no evidence we have better hand than opps.

I was the 3♠ bidder - and I didnt think pass was forcing, yet I think there is plenty of evidence that we have the lion's share of the HCP.

But 5♥ might still be making, and there's definitely no guarantee that 5♠ will.

[Fluffy]

They don't think they are going to make the contract, so I would tend to believe them. Anyway it is not very clear.

[whereagles]

According to Robson/Segal rules for forcing passes, this pass is NOT forcing.

But anyone can make up his own set of rules.

[Winstonm]

This depends whether as a partnership you decide a forcing pass applies with "most of the high cards" or "a preponderance of the high cards"; in other words, whether an opening hand opposite a limit raise creates a FP situation or does it require a game forcing situation.

In my mind, at imps the pass should only be forcing when we have substantially the balance, or in game forcing auctions only. At MPs, it might be right to have FP on with less as one can't have the opponents stealing partscores if the double is the difference between +100 or +300 verses +140, and if they make it you were probably getting little-to-nothing anyway.

The FP is such a difficult concept that my regular partner and I have gone so far as to define certain auctions: 1H-1S-2H-2S/3S: with a solid raise to 4H, partner bids "Serious" 3N which creates FP. With a distributional hand, partner bids his second suit at the 4-level or a direct 4H, which does NOT create a forcing pass. The only times we use FP is when we are clearly bidding game as a make based on "prepoderance of high cards".

So, under this definition the pass in question would be non-forcing.

winstonm