[Jinksy]

(1x) 1y P 1z /
P 2y

Does the upper end depend on the suits/vul? Or does 2y have a set range (and if so, what)?

(ETA we play the advance as forcing, but interested in your response to both a forcing and NF version)

[KingCovert]

I'm going to put this in terms that I prefer, but, obviously it depends somewhat on agreements.

1y = An overcall
1z = Advancing the overcall.

I like to play that any new suit that advances overcall is a one round force. It should show either the shape or values to warrant that force. I don't want to ever have to wonder if partner is bidding a new suit on air, and if I'm the one advancing the overcall, I want a way to both force partner and show my distribution. Weak jump shifts and PASS are always available when you don't have the hand worthy of a one round force. I don't think this treatment is uncommon, perhaps it's common.

Okay, so... If the overcaller re-bids either their suit or No Trump, we know that these bids aren't forcing, and they are non-forcing while acknowledging that their partner's advancing bid is a one round force as described. Perhaps the overcaller didn't like hearing their partner bid whatever suit Z was, and may in fact have some extra values but is electing to downgrade the hand. Perhaps the overcaller just simply had minimal or mediocre values for their overcall, which is fine. It's contextual.

That all being said, I think that if I had the right 14 points or better, I'd find a forcing bid, or make some sort of invitational raise. So, if I had good fit with Z, if my hand had good texture (aka intermediate value) or if I felt that my hand was well positioned behind the opener given the context/inferences/probable leads that result from the auction, I'd consider this a good hand.

(Note: There will always be the distributional exceptions to comments like "the right 14 points or better". Obviously there are some 6-5 10 HCP hands that are better than many 17 HCP hands you'll hold. So, I'm mostly talking about somewhat normal/common hands.)

Edit: Using Advancer as suggested by David.

[DavidKok]

The '1z' bid is called "Advancer's bid". To avoid confusion, "Responder" is usually reserved for the partner of the opener.

That said I agree with what KingCovert says. The 2y bid means something like 9-12 points, and usually denies interest in advancer's suit. It does not promise extra length in the bid suit, since advancer's bid was forcing. Advancer should have at least 10 points (or enough shape to rebid their own suit NF on the 3-level), so with most 13's I'm comfortable bypassing my suit at the 2 level. Keep in mind my points will lie over the opener, so they are well placed.

[Cyberyeti]

Also depends on what an overcall looks like for you, for us the ranges are very similar to the auction without the opening bid, but our 1 level overcalls are sounder than most

[KingCovert]

DavidKok, on 2020-April-20, 15:47, said:

The '1z' bid is called "Advancer's bid". To avoid confusion, "Responder" is usually reserved for the partner of the opener.

That said I agree with what KingCovert says. The 2y bid means something like 9-12 points, and usually denies interest in advancer's suit. It does not promise extra length in the bid suit, since advancer's bid was forcing. Advancer should have at least 10 points (or enough shape to rebid their own suit NF on the 3-level), so with most 13's I'm comfortable bypassing my suit at the 2 level. Keep in mind my points will lie over the opener, so they are well placed.

Yes, true enough, that player is called the advancer! I always forget. Thanks.

[Vampyr]

DavidKok, on 2020-April-20, 15:47, said:

The 2y bid means something like 9-12 points, and usually denies interest in advancer's suit. It does not promise extra length in the bid suit, since advancer's bid was forcing.

The OP did not specify whether in his system the advance to the overcall was forcing. For many it is not, and for others it depends on the level (eg whether the advance raised the level as in (1♥)-1[♠-(P)-2♣).

[helene_t]

Is the fourth suit still available as a non-reverse?

Are you happy to rebid 1NT with Jxx in their suit?

Is 1z non-forcing?

Do you play undisciplined weak jump overcalls?

Answering "yes" to the last to questions, I would say that 2y shows 11-14 or thereabouts, even if the answer to the first question is "no".

So it depends. If 1z is forcing, overcaller may have no other options with a 3154 8-count.

You may have the agreement that you don't bid 1♦ on weak hands. Since the unbid minor will always be available as a non-reverse after a 1M overcall, this would solve this issue.

But you could still be stuck after
(1♣)-1♥-(pass)-2♦
(pass)-?

with a 4513 8-count.

[Jinksy]

(edited the OP to clarify forcingness of the advance)

[Jinksy]

helene_t, on 2020-April-21, 16:09, said:

Is the fourth suit still available as a non-reverse?

Answer for both cases

Quote

Are you happy to rebid 1NT with Jxx in their suit?

I think you have to be willing to rebid 1N on worse than that if you're playing forcing responses. But it also raises the question of whether doing so shows more values than a simple overcall.

Quote

Is 1z non-forcing?

Answer for both cases (though no )

Quote

Do you play undisciplined weak jump overcalls?

So it seems like the direct answer to the titular Q is 'no'. Again, how would you feel in each case? Personally though, I like to play very aggressive jump overcalls at any vul, so that my 1-level overcalls actually tend to be quite sound (something like 9+ if I have to put a number on it)

Quote

So it depends. If 1z is forcing, overcaller may have no other options with a 3154 8-count.

Yeah, so the case I'm maybe most interested in F1 advances with standard (8+?) overcalls - does that mean 2♦ here has a range like 8-14? Or do you reduce the ceiling of the bid in that case?

Quote

You may have the agreement that you don't bid 1♦ on weak hands. Since the unbid minor will always be available as a non-reverse after a 1M overcall, this would solve this issue.

You might, but over 1♣, it seems dangerous not to bid if you've got a suit like AKxxx - it might be the only way to get a winning lead against a 3N contract. You might prefer to bid 2♦ on many such hands (as I do), but many people wouldn't want to esp vul, and it seems like quite a loss for them to lose out on the lead direction for the sake of a once-in-10000-hands constructive sequence.

Also there's a question of what a cue of their suit should mean here. Maybe it doesn't need to show support, which would save you from having to leap to 3y just to show a misfitting 12-count.

[Zelandakh]

You should really see this sort of auction not too dissimilarly from a normal constructive one but with slightly different ranges. Say a typical overcall range was 6-16. Then a bottom end for a forcing change of suit might be around 9+ and the ranges for Overcaller's rebids might be 2y=6-11, 3y=12-14, 4y = 15+. Obviously you adjust this according to your own preferred ranges but this is the basic concept - you want your 2y to take up roughly the bottom half of your range and your 3y to be fairly specific. 4y is going to be rare as most strong hands will cue (2x) but will be a maximum, since a hand that is bidding it preemptively would not have overcalled 1y to start with and we are now in a constructive auction.

If you are playing sound overcalls, say 8-18, then your 2y range here might perhaps be 8-13. For very sound overcalls like CY it might look more like 10-15. It is difficult to give specifics because there is no real consensus for overcall strengths. As long a you make sure 2y is roughly the bottom half of the range though, you will not go far wrong.

[Jinksy]

That all makes sense, thanks Zel