[plaur]

1♣-p-1♥-2NT

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Im learning Micheals and unNT. Using http://www.bridgeguy...ualNoTrump.html as reference.

(1NT would have been natural)
Is this 2NT a good bid?
Several partners have believed me to have 5-5 minors in this auction. Is this a common usage?
Would either 2♣ or 2♥ be Micheals?

[mike777]

plaur, on May 20 2005, 01:33 AM, said:

1♣-p-1♥-2NT

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Im learning Micheals and unNT. Using http://www.bridgeguy...ualNoTrump.html as reference.

(1NT would have been natural)
Is this 2NT a good bid?
Several partners have believed me to have 5-5 minors in this auction. Is this a common usage?
Would either 2♣ or 2♥ be Micheals?

What does Pass mean in your system?
What do your partners play a bid of pass to mean?
Are you ever allowed to pass in 4th seat with 8 hcp and 2 -5 card suits, one of which has no honors when you are stuck between 2 bidding opponents? Note you are not making a direct overcall after 1c opening but are in 4th chair.
Do all or most of your partners want you to bid with any 2-5 card suits in this situation?

[kgr]

I agree with Mike. With this hand you only give additional info to the opps on how they will have to bid and to play the hand.
If you would have a better (and more offensive) hand with honours in your long suits; eg:
AKT9x
x
AQTxx
xx
then:
I play with my regular partner that 2NT is for 2 lowest suits and cue is for 2 highest. In my club a lot of players do play 5cM opening; 4cD opening and possibly 2c Club.
We don't have a distinction here between 2NT, 2C and 2H; but I would bid 2H because 2NT and 2C could confuse my partner (he could think that C is one of my suits).

... does anybody have different meaning for 2NT, 2C and 2H after this sequence?

[Echognome]

Although I do not dispute Mike's comments about the prudence of passing, I can tell you that the situation you described in bidding is one of agreement. When you see Michael's and Unusual NT described, it refers to direct action over a bid.

So after 1♣ (or 1♦), the usual meanings are:

2♣ (2♦) = Majors
2NT = 2 lowest (e.g. hearts and diamonds after 1♣ opened)

After a 1♥ (or 1♠)
2♥ = Spades (the other major) and a minor
2NT = 2 lowest

If both opponents bid, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to pass. Some people (such as myself) play a "sandwich" NT rather than 1NT = 15-17 balanced with a stopper.

So after (1X) - P - (1Y) - ? (e.g. my LHO bids 1♣ and my RHO bids 1♥)

Double = strong takeout
1NT = weak takeout
2X (the lower cue-bid) = 6 of lowest unbid, 4 of highest unbid
2Y (the higher cue-bid) = 4 of lowest unbid, 6 of highest unbid
2NT = 55 or better in the other two suits

For example, suppose the auction has gone (1♦) - P - (1♠) - ?

Double = strong clubs and hearts
1NT = weak clubs and hearts
2♦ = 6 clubs and 4 hearts
2♠ = 4 clubs and 6 hearts
2NT = 5 clubs and 5 hearts

Note that others will play these bids very differently. The important thing is that you and your partner discuss the meanings of these bids before you spring them on partner. I won't debate the merits of the various systems, but will say that since people play these different ways, your partner may not expect what you mean unless you've discussed it. Finally, you should also pay attention to the vulnerability when making these bids. If both opponents have bid and your partner has remained silent, it can be dangerous entering the auction, especially vulnerable.

Best of luck,
Matt

[Free]

With my f2f partner I play as follows:

Dbl = 4-4 unbid suits
1NT = 4 card highest, 5+ card lowest
2X = 5+ card highest, 4 card lowest
2Y = 55+
(X = opener's suit, Y = responder's suit)

With this agreements I'd bid 1NT, since my ♠s are only worth a 4 card imo.

[joker_gib]

I play and this is quite common in Belgium and France, I think :

Cue of responder's suit (2♥ in your example) is always natural
Cue of opener suit = 2 suiter
2NT = 2 suiter but stronger one

Alain

[Gerben42]

To answer the original question: 2NT here without any doubt shows the 2 unbid suits.
Now if 1♣ is art. then 2NT might be minors. Or 2♣ might be natural. Welcome to misunderstanding alley.

[MickyB]

Echognome, on May 20 2005, 09:13 AM, said:

Some people (such as myself) play a "sandwich" NT rather than 1NT = 15-17 balanced with a stopper.

People who play it as natural usually play it as 17-19 I think.

[Gerben42]

It won't matter how strong you play it, partner will be weaker by the same amount when (not if) they double you.

[ochinko]

Echognome, on May 20 2005, 03:13 AM, said:

Double = strong takeout
1NT = weak takeout

That's what I play too. The idea is that while both NT and double show the other two suits, partner can pass the double turning it into penalty, so we double with a stronger hand, and bid NT with a weaker. Natural NT after both opps have bid in a free position is just asking for trouble.

Quote

2X (the lower cue-bid) = 6 of lowest unbid, 4 of highest unbid
2Y (the higher cue-bid) = 4 of lowest unbid, 6 of highest unbid

That's an interesting addition. I wish my partner would be able to remember it. Or at least that I would

Petko

[Elianna]

Some people also play bids of opponents suits as NATURAL when they've bid two (or more sometimes) suit. For example, as in your bidding, 2♣ would be natural, whatever strength you like for an overcall at the two level, and 5+ clubs. 2♥ would be natural, but 6+ cards, usually.

Actually, the funny thing is, the treatment I mentioned above is "standard" in the US (ie, it's what is in Standard American) though I don't have any clue how standard it is in most pairs' bidding systems.

I think a rule to remember when wanting to make marginal bids (eg, open or overcall with minimums) is "where are your points?" If your points are in your long suits, your hand is better for competing than if they're in short suits. Another (very related) question is "how well does this bid describe my hand". If you don't really have the shape for your bid, nor the values, you're either going to mislead partner, or greatly help the opponents. And you don't even have the excuse of, "my suit looked so great, I wanted to tell you about it"!

[PriorKnowledge]

I prefer keeping the sandwich 1N as 15-18. There is too much light openers and light responders to trust the opps anymore. If you have 16 and partner has 10, only the 1N bid will find your game. It is also simpler

Commonly played, your 2N shows 55 in the 2 lowest unbid suits, diam + spades here. As a learner, it is best to master the commonly played methods and advance to others when you outgrow the common methods.

(In this situation, "Standard" is a misnomer, but "Commonly played" makes more sense)

Whether you should bid 1S, 2D, 2N, or pass is a matter of judgment, situation, style and partnership agreement.

I like to play both Michaels and unusual as either 1) Preemptive (<10) or 2) Strong (>14), And just bid the 2 suits with 10-14.

I agree with your 2N, especially if non-vul or playing MP. Vul at IMP I might be more cautious.