[HeartA]

Scoring: IMP

West dealt and opened 2S and bidding went:
W -- N -- E -- S
(2S)-3C-(P)-3S
(P)-4C-(P)-4H
(P)-5C-(P)-5H
All Passed

---

1) Who was more responsible for the overbid?
2) Is 3H directly over 3C by South forcing or not?

[scoob]

I think I would be more inclined to bid 4♥ directly unless I knew for certain that 3♥ was forcing (which I don't). To me the cue bid belies the length of your ♥ suit and tends to indicate ♣ support.

[Fluffy]

to me 3♣ is unaceptable bid, 150% blame for it.

[Antoine Fourrière]

South is the responsible for the actual mix-up (yes, 3♥ is forcing), but he would have had to bid 6♥ if East had bid 4♠, and that would have been North's fault.

[hotShot]

After a preempt one should bid only with a solid opening. So 3♣ is not a good bid.
South 3♠ bid is not a good bid either, because it does not describe his hand. South needs to play ♥ and only Aces are helpfull form north. The only way to make north realize that (without lots of aces on north hand) 4♥ is the place to be, is to bid 4♥ at once.

So i would say 60% north 40% south.

[Free]

How many times do you rebid your suit with a 6 card when you overcalled at 3-level these days?? Guess who I blame...

[helene_t]

The singleton hearts is another reason for not overcalling with the North hand. Partner is going to bid hearts and then this auction is predictable, even if South had been a lot weaker than he happened to be.

North is aceless, he has two spade loosers and he has no rebid over 3♥. (Oops the latter is not true of course, he could rebid 3♠).

This post has been edited by helene_t: 2005-May-27, 03:55

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

1st, for me 3H would not be forcing, it would be constructive,
but nonforcing. This means in my book South cannot bid
3H, he must bid 4H, and that for me 3S is an overbid.

This is a matter of partnership aggreement.

2nd, if you take it, that 4H is strong and natural, I would
just pass with the North hand, sure you only have a
singleton, but then 5 clubs is one level higher.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[the hog]

3C is horrible. North is totally to blame.

[joker_gib]

The_Hog, on May 27 2005, 05:09 AM, said:

3C is horrible. North is totally to blame.

Agree !

Alain

[Blofeld]

I don't much like North's 3♣ bid, but having made that call I don't see how he can bid differently. After 3♠, South's 4♥ has to be a cue bid for clubs, so the 4♣ bid is denying a spade control, and 5♣ a retreat into the agreed suit without slam ambitions. South should just have bid 3♥ at his first turn (assuming this is forcing; 4♥ if not).

So I can't call North blameless (as the overcall is rather exceedingly light - I agree with Antoine about possible continuations if East had bid 4♠), but I dislike South's actual bidding more.

[mr1303]

If we're all in agreement that the North hand is NOT worth an overcall, then there's not a great deal of point in playing new suits not forcing. The difficulty in playing them not forcing is shown in attempting to bid this hand, since opps have already taken your space, you need all the rest of it that you can get.

South is too strong to bid 4H at his first turn.
Opposite something as small as

xx
xx
AKxx
AKxxx

6H is absolutely laydown. And there are plenty more minimum 3C overcalls which make 6H as well, a lot of which are weaker than the hand I gave.

Hence North for making rubbish overcalls and South for not playing new suits forcing after a 3 level overcall

[pclayton]

I don't think 3♣ is criminal. It might lead to a nice 3N when pard has an acey 12 count. But it is a definite overbid.

3♥ like the others have said is 100% forcing. North is boxed over 3♥ and retreats to 4♣. South devalues the K♠ in light of the misfit and retreats to 4♥.

[whereagles]

3C is fine...

After (2S) 3C (pass) south could follow 3 plans:

1. Bid 3H + 4H if he judges his hand to be slam invitational.
2. Bid a straight 4H if not.
3. Bid 3NT.

I would choose 3, but that's a matter of style.

The 3S cue could muddy the issue and that's exactly what happened. North took 4H for a cue with club fit and.. GAME OVER.

[HeartA]

I was South. I was disappointed when I saw dummy. My pd, used to be pro (we played 30 boards in the previous night and that's it), said that it was common sense that 3H is forcing. Since (1S)-2C-(P)-2H wouldn't be forcing, 3H in that sequence being forcing is not that clear to be without discussion. I tried to show a hand that was stronger than direct 4H.

[Walddk]

They can get 100% each (I'm generous). North for making a serious overbid, South for trying everything he can to confuse partner.

Why all those (unassuming) cue bids when you have a perfectly normal bid available? And if anyone wants to play 3♥ as non forcing on this auction, then good luck to them!

Roland

[Fluffy]

HeartA, on May 27 2005, 09:42 PM, said:

Since (1S)-2C-(P)-2H wouldn't be forcing

Its forcing to me, there is the fact that 1x-2y without jump promises 6 card suit and opening values to me in my partnership, do manypeople play these non forcing?

[mike777]

Fluffy, on May 27 2005, 09:30 PM, said:

HeartA, on May 27 2005, 09:42 PM, said:

Since (1S)-2C-(P)-2H wouldn't be forcing

Its forcing to me, there is the fact that 1x-2y without jump promises 6 card suit and opening values to me in my partnership, do manypeople play these non forcing?

BWS 2001 only 23% of experts played 2h forcing, 16% of readers.

[flytoox]

HeartA, on May 27 2005, 09:42 PM, said:

I was South. I was disappointed when I saw dummy. My pd, used to be pro (we played 30 boards in the previous night and that's it), said that it was common sense that 3H is forcing. Since (1S)-2C-(P)-2H wouldn't be forcing, 3H in that sequence being forcing is not that clear to be without discussion. I tried to show a hand that was stronger than direct 4H.

I think 2 over 2 is not forcing, but 3 over 3 should be forcing. At 3 level, you just dont have enough room for cuebid then show your suit.

With your hand, I think 4H is ok. Against preempt, you should take a practical approach. Pd must have a very good hand for slam. He can bid on if he really has. 4H is not bar bid, just saying you want to play it no matter what pd has.