[Echognome]

Playing Matchpoints, you hold:

♠ xx
♥ x
♦ AJ9xx
♣ KQxxx

Partner opens 1NT (14-16). You bid 2♠ minor suit stayman and partner bids 3♣.

The meanings of your bids are:

3♦ = Signoff in diamonds
3♥ = Heart stop worried about spades for 3NT
3♠ = Spade stop worried about hearts for 3NT
3NT = To play
4♣ = RKCB for clubs

If you don't like the methods, how would you bid the hand under normal methods (assuming you don't have a bid that shows 5-5 in the minors invitational plus!).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

4C.

You decided this, when
you did bid 2S.
Because if you were not
interested in 6C / 6D,
why bother with 2S at all.

It's MP and Minors dont
count.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I would suggest, that you drop
your old meanings for 3H or 3S,
and change the meaning to
- mild slam interest, partner
should look at his cards and move
on in case he is control rich
=> 3H
- worry about 3NT, because of a missing
stopper in an unspecified mayor
=> 3S

[Echognome]

We used to play

3♥ = worry about 3NT as a contract
3♠ = mild slam try in minor

However, we didn't find this very appealing as the mild slam try didn't seem to come up often and it was difficult for opener to know how good his hand was. So, we switched to more 'worries about NT'.

Maybe we should switch to:

3♥ = worried about spades and possibly hearts as well, then
--3♠ = I've got spades covered, are you ok with hearts
--3NT = I've got both hearts and spades covered
3♠ = worried about hearts

[whereagles]

I don't fancy playing 5C (though it could be the right spot), so I'm going to bid 3S and see what happens. If pard can't bid 3NT now, then I'm sure 5C is the right spot.

[Free]

With your methods, it's only a matter of playing 5♣ or 6♣ imo. That's why I'll show ♥ stopper and 'worry' about ♠s. If partner doesn't have ♠s, then slam is out for sure.

3♥.

[mr1303]

In the Lawrence version of MSS, does 3H not show a singleton here? If partner has KQJx of hearts, you don't want to go anywhere near 6C, but if he has Axx or xxx, then 6C is a favourite.

[Echognome]

It's an interesting question. What should your bids show over MSS?

Personally I think it's better to have MSS than four suit transfers. Most of the auctions went 1NT - 3NT which went 2 or 3 down. The winning action on this hand was surprisingly pass. (Partner has something like Jxx KQJ Qxx AJxx)

Should you show a singleton? What would p bid after 3♥ singleton? 3NT presumably which is awful.

I'm not sure what the best methods are... hence the question.

[Fluffy]

if 3♥ is nto shortness then 4♥ should be, and I'll bid it.

[inquiry]

I like ETM Victory structure, apply this to the hand that caused this problem and see how it works for you.

In ETM victory, a 3♣ response shows a minor two suiter, 5-4 or better, GF. Opener can bid 3NT (I have the majors just find), or can bid 3♦ to ask. The replies to the 3♦ asking bid are:

1N-3♣-3♦?

• 3♥singleton or void in Hs. 3S asks: 3NT shows 3-1-5-4 or 3-1-4-5, 4C shows 5-5 in minors.
  
• 3♠: 5-5 in minors, singleton or void in spades.
  
• 3NT 1-3-5-4 or 1-3-4-5.
  
• 4♣ 6Cs, 5Ds, singletons in both majors.
  
• 4♦: 6Ds, 5Cs, singletons in both majors.
  
• 4M: void in M, singleton in OM, 6-6 or 7-5 in the minors.

(lifted directly from the ETM victory response to one notrump page at ... http://www.bridgematters.com/onent.htm )

So you can see the bidding would start 3♣. and partner might well bid 3♦ asking, now this hand bids 3♥ = singleton or void in hearts. If partner bids 3♠ asking again, this hand will bid 4♣, describing 2-1-5-5.

I know what you are thinking, sure this 3♣ handles the hand where responder has game force and minor two suiter, but what if responder has bad hand and both minors, you can't get to 3 of a minor. That is not true. They play 1N-2S as transfer to clubs, and 1NT-2NT as transfer to diamonds. But wrapped in the transfer to diamonds is the response of 3♣ which shows a "bad hand for diamonds" (sort of upside down superaccept). So with a weak hand and both minors, you bid 2NT (transfer to diamonds), and if your partner has a bad hand for diamonds, he will bid 3♣ and you will pass!!! This works well.

[mike777]

Rebids over 3c which promised 4clubs

3D=WEAK WITH LONG D, SIGN OFF
3NT=MILD SLAM TRY, OPENER CAN PASS OR BID ON
NEW SUITS CUE BID FOR CLUBS
4D NOW OR LATER=KEYCARD FOR CLUBS...THAT MEANS WE CAN STILL GET OUT IN 4NT DEPENDING ON HOW THE BIDDING DEVELOPS.

SO 3H BID HERE IS A CUEBID AGREEING CLUBS.

[awm]

I think you're pretty much fixed by your methods on this one. Elianna and I play minor suit stayman, but our new major bids show shortness. I think this is actually fairly standard. Our auction would be something like:

1NT - 2♠
3♣ - 3♥
...

Now opener can bid 3NT to play, or 3♠ to show good hearts and ask for spade help, or any other bid to set clubs and indicate little wastage in hearts (generally looking for slam).

The hand is also rather easy to bid in Keri after:

1NT - 2NT (transfer to ♣)
3♣ - 3♦ (5-5 majors game force)

[luke warm]

yet another hand where it seems better to know opener's shape than vice versa (i'm assuming one treats responder's hand as a game force, which i would)

playing standardish, i like xfer to clubs then bid diamonds, sorta like adam said

[awm]

luke warm, on May 13 2005, 05:58 PM, said:

yet another hand where it seems better to know opener's shape than vice versa (i'm assuming one treats responder's hand as a game force, which i would)

playing standardish, i like xfer to clubs then bid diamonds, sorta like adam said

How does opener's shape help? Let's say opener is 3442, where do you want to play?

AQx
xxxx
KQxx
Ax

6♦ is pretty good. 3NT needs hearts 4-4.

QJx
KQxx
Kxxx
Ax

5♦ is down off the top. 3NT is okay.

KQx
xxxx
KQxx
AJ

5♦ is on ice, 6♦ no play. 3NT has no play on a ♥ lead, and could easily be two off.

[luke warm]

awm, on May 14 2005, 12:01 AM, said:

How does opener's shape help? Let's say opener is 3442, where do you want to play?

AQx
xxxx
KQxx
Ax

6♦ is pretty good. 3NT needs hearts 4-4.

QJx
KQxx
Kxxx
Ax

5♦ is down off the top. 3NT is okay.

KQx
xxxx
KQxx
AJ

5♦ is on ice, 6♦ no play. 3NT has no play on a ♥ lead, and could easily be two off.

♠ xx
♥ x
♦AJ9xx
♣ KQxxx

if opener is 3442, and assuming i've decided to use the game force sequence, it would probably go:

1nt : 2d
2h : 2s
3d : 3nt

maybe slam does make, maybe it doesn't.. maybe 3nt goes down, maybe it doesn't... the main point is to avoid 3nt when opener's doubleton is in a major... say he's 4234 instead... now 5c is easily better than 3nt, but you wouldn't know that unless you knew where his doubleton was

it's true that opener can find out responder's shape, if that's what you want... i just think it's better to do it the other way around, especially with gf hands... let the opps guess about the less known hand

[Echognome]

Doesn't that depend on whether you are driving towards 3NT or 5/6 of a minor? The opener will play 3NT, so you don't want his hand being revealed for the defense any more than it has been.

[luke warm]

if the distribution is such that 3nt appears best, it's usually bid fairly quickly... but the main point is to stay out of 3nt when it's right to do so... rosenkrantz is even of the opinion that a doubleton facing a doubleton, even with a sure stopper, makes 3nt worse than 5m in such auctions

like i said, it's a matter of what is gained or lost depending on who describes and who asks... usually in a gf auction, responder should be the captain, imo

edit: taking the 4234 hand opposite:

♠ xx
♥ x
♦AJ9xx
♣ KQxxx

1nt : 2d
2s : 2nt
3c : 3d
3h : 5c

3h showed the 4234 shape, but opps don't know responder is 2155 (until the lead, that is)... sure 5c could be down, but then again so could 3nt... also, 6c could make, but responder could find out the controls, etc, if he wants

[Free]

With freak hands, it's usually better to show rather than to ask. This is a perfect example, since you might have slam or not even game, depending on what opener has. He should make the decision, since he's the one who can get the right information soon enough. Ok, you can ask shape and place tophonours, but in this situation placing the honours takes you waaaaaay too high if opener doesn't have the right hand...

[luke warm]

Free, on May 14 2005, 08:18 AM, said:

Ok, you can ask shape and place top honours, but in this situation placing the honours takes you waaaaaay too high if opener doesn't have the right hand...

not to beat a dead horse, but that isn't necessarily so... first of all, you have to determine whether or not you want to be in game... that's the major hurdle... if so, what game?... with the dist/hands given, it's easy for responder to know what controls opener has, if he's interested in slam