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To Brexit

#221 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-01, 05:38

View Postcherdano, on 2021-January-01, 05:25, said:

I dare say the issues are a little bit deeper than that. [Aside from that, I also don't understand how what you are saying is meant to contradict what I wrote.]
I don't have time to write a novel right now, and also it belongs to the other thread; so let me just say that I very much hope Rishi Sunak, Sunetra Gupta and Carl Henaghan will enjoy their well-earned special place in hell when they get there.


I'm applying Hanlon's razor - I don't think it's elitism (or malice in Hanlon's razor terms), I think it's incompetence.

On the Brexit front, I'm amazed and delighted they got it all done, and also a less publicised bit, the negociations concluded with Spain yesterday for Gibraltar to remain in the Schengen area so no border checks are required and their economy can continue to function.
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#222 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-January-01, 15:02

View Postcherdano, on 2021-January-01, 03:46, said:

And so it is done.

A sad day for the UK; from my side, I have applied for German citizenship.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#223 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2021-January-01, 15:49

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-January-01, 15:02, said:

A sad day for the UK; from my side, I have applied for German citizenship.

I don't think you can say sad day for the UK when the majority of people wanted independence. We now partially have it, so I am happier than I would be otherwise. A sad day for you, true, but I looked out of the window when I arose and could see it was a new dawn and the sun was shining.
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#224 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-January-01, 16:26

So a year from now, I'll ask all the Brexit supporters in this thread to name one practical gain the UK got from Brexit (other than making it harder for immigrants like me to move to the country - you'll understand that I am not that sympathetic to that view). But don't hesitate to make predictions now if you want to be ahead of the game.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#225 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-01, 16:34

View Postcherdano, on 2021-January-01, 16:26, said:

So a year from now, I'll ask all the Brexit supporters in this thread to name one practical gain the UK got from Brexit (other than making it harder for immigrants like me to move to the country - you'll understand that I am not that sympathetic to that view). But don't hesitate to make predictions now if you want to be ahead of the game.


I don't think one year is enough time to ask that question. The next year will be difficult, and any gains will not really have started accruing, there are trade deals to be done, and the negotiations will barely have started. The time to start working out how well or badly Brexit has gone is at least 5-10 years away maybe more, partially because we want to see what the EU looks like by then. If the EU has moved into closer political union, many Brits will see it as a good thing not to be in it, but that's not going to happen in one year.
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#226 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-January-01, 16:39

Don't worry, I will keep asking year after year :)
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#227 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-January-02, 07:22

View PostfromageGB, on 2021-January-01, 15:49, said:

I don't think you can say sad day for the UK when the majority of people wanted independence.

The UK always had independence; the Eu was a series of treaties where we made some agreements for the common good, not a state of subservience. And, of course, prior to 2016, a majority of people wanted the benefits of EU membership. Similarly a majority of Brits want schools, mail services, rail, water and energy companies to be run by the public sector. Should we take a single vote on those and say that is the end of the matter and it should never ever change? How about looking further back - Germany and Italy voted for Fascism; perhaps we should ask them to honour that vote. A majority of American voters were not opposed to slavery in 1861 and an overwhelming majority of South African voters were not opposed to apartheid in 1990.

Sometimes large, generational decisions need to be made with a long-term view rather than based on a vote at a specific point in time, particularly when that time is during great upheaval, such as in the middle of a global financial crisis combined with a massive refugee influx. During times of desperation, people are willing to take desperate measures, even if they are likely to be harmful. It happened during the 1930s and has also happened in the 2010s. Britain is not alone in that but one would have hoped that our government was strong enough to keep itself on a good way even through such times.

Here is a really simple comparison - take the UK in 1972 and then again prior to the start of the financial crash in 2007. Which UK do you think was economically more successful? Heck, even compare it with the UK of 2019. I cannot say I remember much of the early 1970s but I do know the state the country was in back then.

Now it is not like the UK was a terrible place to live in the 70s, there were far worse countries to be in. And I am sure that the UK will not die overnight after this decision. There will just be a little bit less investment over time; fewer jobs available; and generally even less influence in the world than would be the case if the UK were a part of the EU. We could perhaps change the name to "The United Kingdom of Slightly-Less-Great Britain and Northern Ireland", particularly if this finally pushes Scotland over the edge.

In short, you can make a certain subset of people believe almost anything if you back it up with the right media. Even without Fox or any centre or left wing media, close to 40% of American voters do not trust the results of the 2020 POTUS election. That is a good indication of what is possible if you lie consistently to the public. And Brexit-pushers have been lying for two generations. You yourself have brought up EU issues that were fraudulent. It is not surprising that some believed it. Add that to the racists and the desperate while cheating the rules and subduing younger voters gets you to 51.9%. Run it another day and you will get 48.1%, or 52.6%, or 46.8%. We have essentially allowed a small, orchestrated lobby group to dictate national policy not only for a single government but for generations to come. And yes, that is indeed a sad day for me but it is a much, much sadder one for the UK as a whole.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#228 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-January-16, 09:10

View Postcherdano, on 2021-January-01, 16:26, said:

So a year from now, I'll ask all the Brexit supporters in this thread to name one practical gain the UK got from Brexit (other than making it harder for immigrants like me to move to the country - you'll understand that I am not that sympathetic to that view). But don't hesitate to make predictions now if you want to be ahead of the game.

Just so you know what to aim for in your answers - here is a concrete example of Brexit costs:
https://mobile.twitt...367078662987777

But no pressure - you still have 11.5 months to prepare your answers.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#229 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-March-09, 15:04

View Postcherdano, on 2021-January-16, 09:10, said:

Just so you know what to aim for in your answers - here is a concrete example of Brexit costs:
https://mobile.twitt...367078662987777

But no pressure - you still have 11.5 months to prepare your answers.


Here is another example: https://twitter.com/...352176464756736

Quote

German imports from:
-9.8% total
-5.9% EU
+1.1% China
-56.2% United Kingdom

Just losing half a month worth of trade with Germany. Yes Covid played a role of course, but not *that* much either (the Calais-Dover crossing was blocked in late December, not in January).

You guys better tee up a hell of an answer about the practical benefits. Or were there perhaps other reasons for your sympathy for Brexit?
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#230 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-March-09, 16:06

Well, at least the UK was able to get an increase in its fishing quotas...


Oh, wait...
Alderaan delenda est
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#231 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-March-10, 00:48

Nigel Farage has announced his retirement from politics, so that's one benefit.... Posted Image
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#232 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-March-10, 03:47

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-March-10, 00:48, said:

Nigel Farage has announced his retirement from politics, so that's one benefit.... Posted Image

And today I will quite BBF!
(Who will be back first, me on BBF, or Farage in politics?)
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#233 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2021-June-15, 08:54

Fintan O'Toole at The Irish Times said:

https://www.irishtim...iable-1.4593235

Blessed are the makers of processed pork products, for they shall come to symbolise British pluck in the face of the foreign foe. The invention of the “sausage war” as a cover for the flagrant breach of an international treaty is absurd. But we have to remember that we are trapped in a nightmare where the more absurd the imagery is, the more seriously we have to take it.

To understand what is going on with the Northern Ireland protocol we have to ask: why sausages? Why did Boris Johnson confront Emmanuel Macron at the G7 summit over the weekend: “How would you like it if the French courts stopped you moving Toulouse sausages to Paris?”

The question, as it happens, makes no sense. The Saucisse de Toulouse is made all over France, so even in the unlikely event of a blockade, Parisians would have no trouble finding some for their cassoulets.

And as an emblem of the allegedly terrible deprivations inflicted on the plain people of Ulster by the protocol, the sausage seems, on the face of it, even less apt.

If we go back to February 2020, we will find a very different official story: that the protocol would be great for the Ulster sausage.

Why? Because Northern Ireland has lots of fine sausage-makers, including Karro Food in Cookstown, Cranswick in Ballymena and the wonderful Finnebrogue Artisan in Downpatrick.

Not only is the protocol not causing a sausage famine in the six counties, it is a great boon for these pork peddlers. Says who? Well how about the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, whose Minister is one Edwin Poots.

In February 2020, Poots’s department exultantly pointed to the great advantage that Northern Ireland sausage-makers would enjoy because of the protocol: unfettered exports to both Britain and the EU. There is in fact a huge opportunity for them. The UK was selling £17 million (€19.8m) of sausages a year to the EU, with almost half of that going to the Republic. Now, only Northern Ireland sausages can be sold to the EU. The protocol really puts the sizzle into this export trade.

So if you were going to pick out an object to epitomise the evils of the protocol, the last one should be the sausage. But the decision to bang on about bangers has nothing to do with ordinary logic – and that is precisely what makes this whole charade at once so ludicrous and so dangerous.

The “sausage war” tells us, firstly, that Northern Ireland matters, well, not a sausage. You can only pick on good news for Northern Ireland and turn it into an intolerable outrage if what is actually happening there is entirely irrelevant to you.

But if this is not about the decimation of the Ulster fry, what is it about? The bleak answer lies in the return to a habit deeply ingrained in English nationalism: the use of basic foodstuffs as weapons in proxy wars against nasty Europeans.

Before God Save the King was widely adopted, the unofficial national anthem of England was The Roast Beef of Old England: “Then, Britons from all nice Dainties refrain / Which effeminate Italy, France and Spain; /And mighty roast beef shall command on the Main.”

In 1996, when the European soccer championship was being played in England, a Tory minister Gillian Shephard objected to the use of Beethoven’s Ode to Joy as the tournament anthem on the grounds that it is German. Britain was then engaged in a “beef war” with Germany because the nasty Krauts were refusing to eat British beef for fear of mad cow disease.

Readers of a certain age may remember the Tory agriculture minister John Gummer force-feeding his own four-year-old daughter Cordelia a beef burger in front of TV camera crews and newspaper reporters, as an act of patriotic heroism. All that was lacking from the photo op was a cow with a red-white-and-blue rosette saying “I’m mad, me!”

The tabloid headlines ran throughout the 1990s: “Germans urged to call truce in ‘mad cow war’”; “Kohl’s beef blitzkrieg”, “French set to back down as Germans hot up beef war”; “Beef War: I’ll Bring Britain To Its Knees”; “Battle lines drawn for new beef war”; “Time to retaliate”. Substitute sausage for beef on this menu of red-blooded chauvinism and its’s once more with feeling.

The appetite for this farcical fodder is, among the Tory base, insatiable. Serve any old piece of meat with some jingo sauce and they swallow it whole. The “sausage war” was cooked up in the back kitchen because the smart boys know it will always go down well with the customers.

This reversion to old habits is a way of keeping the political benefits of Brussels-bashing even after Brexit. Phoney belligerence may have served its rational purpose but it is still far too useful politically to be dispensed with.

The rational thing would be for the Brexiteers to declare victory and move on. But reason is a poor substitute for the ancient pleasures of the patriotic food fight.

And of course the sausage wars help to distract from all the porky pies. Who cares if Northern Ireland chokes on them?

Related: Boris Johnson’s gibberish may be surreal but it's also dangerous

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#234 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-June-19, 01:47

View Postcherdano, on 2021-March-10, 03:47, said:

And today I will quite BBF!
(Who will be back first, me on BBF, or Farage in politics?)


You on BBOF I hope!
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