[Liversidge]

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Partner opened 1♦, I responded 1♠, partner rebid 3♦ and I passed.
Should partner have opened 2NT? Or should she have opened 1♦ and rebid 3NT?
We play weak 2's. Others playing Acol Strong 2's bid and made 3NT+3 or 5♦+1.

[pescetom]

Partner's opening is fine, her rebid is not. She doesn't have a perfect rebid, but 2H is safe (you bid spades) and forcing.

[The_Badger]

Even using a basic bidding system, passing 3♦ is wrong. Opener rebidding at the three level in any suit is usually unconditionally forcing - that's how I play it, others might have their own views on this. Edited: The majority of players treat a rebid of the same suit at the three level (after a one-on-one response) as invitational only. My partner and myself played it as forcing for one round in the same way as a reverse.

An expert way of handling this 3361 hand would be, assuming you are bidding up the line as you do in Acol, is to make a false reverse of 2♥ with the West hand. That would be (hopefully) safe because if partner East has four ♥s too, then he will have at least 5♠s. Though obviously, confusion might happen in the later bidding as to the trump suit if you are not familiar with this technique.

[P_Marlowe]

 Liversidge, on 2018-December-12, 02:46, said:

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Partner opened 1♦, I responded 1♠, partner rebid 3♦ and I passed.
Should partner have opened 2NT? Or should she have opened 1♦ and rebid 3NT?
We play weak 2's. Others playing Acol Strong 2's bid and made 3NT+3 or 5♦+1.

Hi,

#1 you should discuss the strength of 3D, most would play it as 15 - (-)18, holding 9HCP
this should be enough to have a decent chance at making game, you have at min. 24HCP
(the king of diamonds is worth more than 3HCP), i.e. you should bid 3NT, sometimes they
dont lead heart, sometimes partner has a heart stopper, sometimes hearts break 44
If your lower bound is even higher, pass gets even more unattractive, if it is lower, ...
think strongly about changing the lower bound.

#2 The 3D bid is heavy, 20HCP (with singleton king), but the choosen route is reasonable,
especially if you respond sometimes lighter than the text book 6HCP.
You have singleton king (downgrade factor), but you have AQ in partners suit (upgrade factor),
it is heavy, but unless you have conventional support / agreements (fake reverse, 2NT showing
hands like this, inv. minor, ...) there is no real beautiful solution.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I dont like a 2NT opener.

[Cyberyeti]

With less spades, a 3N rebid would be fine, but you could easily be making a slam opposite the right 6 or 7 count, and 4♠ could easily be the right spot.

There is no good way to deal with this playing standard methods, it's not a 2♣ opener and it's too good for 1♦/3♦ particularly when partner responds 1M and you have a fit. 2♥ is not without dangers, partner with a 54?? and minimum values for a game raise bids 4♥, now what ?

2N is not silly, your ♣K might only be a trick at trick 1, and could easily be your 9th.

[Tramticket]

As others have noted, this is not an easy hand. I feel that you have both underbid your hands slightly. The 3♦ bid is non-forcing and I think that west has enough to insist on game after east responds. But I wouldn't choose to pass 3♦ with the east cards either.

I would go for Cyberyeti's approach, since 1♦, 1♠, 2NT shows 19-20 for us and is forcing. I would be less keen on this 2NT bid if, as I expect, it is non-forcing for you. Improvising a 2♥ reverse is probably the best bet.

[hrothgar]

Couple quick comments

1. I don't mind the the 3♦ rebid and probably prefer it to a 2!H reverse. True, its non-forcing, but that stiff King of clubs isn't pulling full value

2. East has a really big hand after 3♦. The King of Diamonds is a huge card.

I lean towards either 4♦ or, if you feel like gambling, 3N

[P_Marlowe]

 hrothgar, on 2018-December-12, 04:44, said:

Couple quick comments

1. I don't mind the the 3♦ rebid and probably prefer it to a 2!H reverse. True, its non-forcing, but that stiff King of clubs isn't pulling full value

2. East has a really big hand after 3♦. The King of Diamonds is a huge card.

I lean towards either 4♦ or, if you feel like gambling, 3N

4D is certainly a good bid, ..., but my guess is, that you play pairs.

[pescetom]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-12, 04:11, said:

2♥ is not without dangers, partner with a 54?? and minimum values for a game raise bids 4♥, now what ?

You correct cheerfully to 4♠, if that would be natural and fit showing. Telling lies about major suit holdings is never without risks, I agree, but 2♥ still looks to me the best bet here.

 The_Badger, on 2018-December-12, 03:09, said:

Opener rebidding at the three level in any suit is usually unconditionally forcing - that's how I play it, others might have their own views on this.

Hmm, this is Novice and Beginner Forum. I know I proposed reversing into a 3-card suit (and feel a bit guilty for that), but maybe it's not the right place to discuss playing opener's rebid of his suit at three level as forcing: the natural logic is that this bid is highly invitational but can be passed and almost any standard system plays it that way. Which doesn't of course mean he was right to pass, but that he shouldn't have been given the possibility by opener.

[The_Badger]

 pescetom, on 2018-December-12, 05:09, said:

. Hmm, this is Novice and Beginner Forum. I know I proposed reversing into a 3-card suit (and feel a bit guilty for that), but maybe it's not the right place to discuss playing opener's rebid of his suit at three level as forcing: the natural logic is that this bid is highly invitational but can be passed and almost any standard system plays it that way. Which doesn't of course mean he was right to pass, but that he shouldn't have been given the possibility by opener.

Yes, I have edited my post accordingly. We played a 1m - 1M -3m sequence as 18+ then instead of 16+, but we had a few modified sequences to deal with the 16-17 hands with a good minor. Thanks for bringing this to my attention as you are entirely right, most players do see this sequence as highly invitational not unconditionally forcing.

[Cyberyeti]

 pescetom, on 2018-December-12, 05:09, said:

You correct cheerfully to 4♠, if that would be natural and fit showing. Telling lies about major suit holdings is never without risks, I agree, but 2♥ still looks to me the best bet here.

And make 6 way too often, but you can't guarantee 5 level safety. KJxxx, xxxx, Kx, xx is a cold slam, Jxxxx, KQxx, xx, Qx might not make 5 with no terrible breaks.

[pescetom]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-12, 10:56, said:

And make 6 way too often, but you can't guarantee 5 level safety. KJxxx, xxxx, Kx, xx is a cold slam, Jxxxx, KQxx, xx, Qx might not make 5 with no terrible breaks.

If partner had your first hand he should have bid 3H, not a jump to 4H, and then more expert couples will not miss slam.
A rebid of 3NT over 1S too is quite likely to miss slam, and the alternative bids are not even forcing.
But yes, it's not an easy hand to bid with natural systems.

[Cyberyeti]

 pescetom, on 2018-December-12, 11:29, said:

If partner had your first hand he should have bid 3H, not a jump to 4H, and then more expert couples will not miss slam.
A rebid of 3NT over 1S too is quite likely to miss slam, and the alternative bids are not even forcing.
But yes, it's not an easy hand to bid with natural systems.

This is resulting of the highest order.

This is the beginner forum, do not assume people play lebensohl over a reverse, 3♥ is not forcing (certainly in Acol) and can be a 5 or 6 count opposite 16 or 17.

[nige1]

Liversidge writes "Partner opened 1♦, I responded 1♠, partner rebid 3♦ and I passed. Should partner have opened 2NT? Or should she have opened 1♦ and rebid 3NT? We play weak 2's. Others playing Acol Strong 2's bid and made 3NT+3 or 5♦+1.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As opener, I rank
1. 2N = BAL 20-22. Singeton king is OK.
2. 1♦ = NAT. A bit strong.


After 1♦ - 1♠- ?, I rank
1. 2♥ = REV, Technical reverse OK because if partner has 4 ♥s, then he should have 5 ♠s.
2. 4♠ = NAT. But it might well be a 4-3 fit.
3. 2N = BAL, ~18 HCP. An underbid.
4. 3N = NAT. Good ♦s. But you might lose a ♠ fit.
5. 3♦ = INV. You could make this bid with 5 fewer HCP. Might be OK if it were forcing or promised 3 ♠s.

After 1♦ - 1♠ - 3♦ - ?, I rank
1. 3N = NAT. Guess but the most likely game. e.g. opp ♠ A x x ♥ J x x ♦ A Q J x x x ♣ .K
2. Pass = NAT. Probable plus score.
3. 5♦ = S/O but commits to 11 tricks.
4. 4♦ = F/1. Works in this hand. (And would be OK if N/F).

Added more options.

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This post has been edited by nige1: 2018-December-13, 19:48

[ahydra]

I use a 3NT rebid for a hand like this (too strong for a rebid of 3).

In any case, with 9 HCPs including a tasty ♦Kxx you're too strong to pass 3D. 3NT is the call - if the opps run 5 heart tricks, so be it, but the majority of the time partner will happen to have something in hearts simply because he has a strong hand.

ahydra

[nekthen]

This is the problem area if you play 3 weak 2s. The problem with 2N is that you will never find 6♦, which, in this case, is a much better bet than 6N. Playing pairs it is a practical bid. If you can't bring yourself to do it, then either make 3♦ forcing to 3N, which in turn increases the range of the 2♦ rebid or play the 2N rebid as artificial and GF.
As noted this is the N & B forum so I suggest that strengthening the 3♦ rebid is less of a strain and I would then be getting a top as the only pair to bid 6♦!
My bid over 3♦ is 4♣, which is a cue bid agreeing ♦.

As others have said, even if 3♦ is only invitational, you are a King better than a minimum so must not pass.

[rmnka447]

I would rebid a "hasty" 2 ♥ reverse rather than 3 ♦ with the opening hand. The hand is a 5 loser hand with 20 HCP (17 working points and stiff ♣ K). Except for the stiff K, all the points are working together and add up to 4 QTs. IMO, that's way more than 3 ♦ rebid hand which is typically 16-18, 6 losers, and something like 3 QTs. Also, the ♦ suit while not solid is also pretty chunky.

Responder's hand is a solid 9 HCP opposite the 3 ♦ rebid which shows 16-18 so is too much to pass. I'd probably just bid 3 NT especially at MPs. Note that when opener jump rebids in ♦, it's usually with a fairly good ♦ holding. So beyond it's point count value, the ♦ K is a huge working card that will solidify ♦.

BTW, bidding 2 NT isn't unreasonable by the "one card off" approach. If a ♦ were a ♣, you'd surely open 2 NT, so you're only one card off if the other methods of bidding don't appeal to you. However, I'd probably still open 1 ♦ as I think all the good intermediates in ♦ make it a suit that I'd emphasize.

[miamijd]

I think others have provided the right answers, but in general, I think you both underbid your hand.

Partner's hand is too strong for 3D. With 20 HCP (yes, I know the stiff Kc isn't worth full value), he wants to be in game opposite even a minimum 1S response. So he needs to make a forcing bid, not a invitational bid like 3D. As others have pointed out, with three spades, a 2H reverse is the right call here. This might look odd, but it's actually a very standard treatment. If partner raises hearts, showing 4, that means he has at least 5 spades (with 4/4, he'd bid hearts first), so you just correct back to spades and reveal your little lie.

Your hand is too good to pass 3D, which shows about 16-18. Even opposite a minimum 3D bid, you should have excellent chances for game. There really isn't a good way to find out if partner has a H card, but with your club stop and Kd, 3NT ought to be a decent shot, so you should just take the bull by the horns and bid it.

Cheers,
mike

[neilkaz]

I agree with everything Mike says in his above post.

[hamish32]

Nige 1 above has it exacly right.