[nullve]

 MrAce, on 2017-July-13, 18:57, said:

I have no idea, whatsoever, about what you tried to say here.

Let me try again:

Suppose Advancer has

a) 2 hcp, 1633
b) 6 hcp, 1633.

He knows that partner can have e.g.

c) 19 hcp, 4243
d) 19 hcp, 5143,

so if the style is to respond 3♥ to the double on both a) and b), partner will not now what to do over that with c) or d), and also the partership may be too high already.

So even with the (standard expert) agreement that 3♥ is PRE, why not bid

* (1♣)-X-1♥; 1N-2♥; P with a) opposite c);
* (1♣)-X-1♥; 1♠-2♥¹; P with a) opposite d)

and e.g.

* (1♣)-X-3♥; 4♥-P with b) opposite c);
* (1♣)-X-3♥; 3♠-3N; P with b) opposite d)

?

¹ It's pointless to rebid 2♥ over

(1♣)-X-1♥; 1♠

on a 5-card suit, because there's no way a 5-3 H fit can be missed after

(1♣)-X-1♥; 1♠-1N/2♣.

[rhm]

I wouöd loose this particular competition by a mile.

 nullve, on 2017-July-13, 17:31, said:

So I won the competition, with 350 out of 400.
Still:
I would have bid 1N at the table on board 1. 2♥ ought to promise 6+ H.

 MrAce, on 2017-July-13, 18:11, said:

FYI. expert consensus is to jump to 3♥ with 6♥ and weak hands.

Weak is a relative term. If you hold a yarborough chances are your partner has a strong hand, quite possibly too strong to overcall.
Does jumping to 3♥ make sense under those conditions with six small hearts? Good luck thereafter.
I still think rebidding 2♥ should show at least either a better suit or at least a more unbalanced hand.
I maintain 1NT is not a distortion, it keeps the bidding low and is quite a descriptive bid. It shows values in context and a balanced hand.
2♥ shows neither.
As to stoppers, we are bidding 1NT not 3NT.
Note 1♣ as a rule does not even promise length in clubs and I can not see why the much weaker hand, which got less than 25% of the combined values, needs to provide the stopper in this context.

Rainer Herrmann

[wank]

 MrAce, on 2017-July-14, 01:17, said:

Oh no, please don't tell me you would not compete to 3♦ with much less than this
Take out one of your aces and make your diamonds 4 card and you are still bidding 3♦ all day long.

True but I'm doubling with the hand given. I expect to bid 3d next.

[Winstonm]

 MrAce, on 2017-July-13, 18:11, said:

FYI. expert consensus is to jump to 3♥ with 6♥ and weak hands.




They knew exactly what they were doing as did I. Just because you do not understand them does not mean they do not know what they are doing.

---

• Your pd can easily hold 4432 or 4333 or 4243 shape. So unless you are passing, only correct call is 2♠ so you do not have to play a 4-3 fit at 3 level instead of 2 level.
• No need to mention, if you have a 4-4 ♣ fit, bidding 2♠ now does not prevent us from finding club fit
• Even if you have a 4-4 fit, playing a 4-3 fit at 2 level, with hcps split equally for both sides, is preferable for most.
• You already denied 4 card major with 1 NT so there is no chance of it being misunderstood (for experts)

I hope that helps you to have a better understanding of the reasons behind their votes.

EDIT: When I voted, I knew it would be between pass and 2♠ and I admit when I voted for 2♠ I was not expecting it to get the top score (despite believing that it is) because most of the expert panel members are like allergic to any undiscussed artificial bids. Which is very reasonable approach but even they voted for 2♠!

My question on this board you bid 2S on is not your well-reasoned bid but the question of whether or not you should bid at all?

[rmnka447]

 Zelandakh, on 2017-July-14, 02:04, said:

Wouldn't everyone bid 2♥ here with ♠x ♥xxxxxx ♦xxx ♣xxx? If 2♥ were purely constructive it would be ideal but playing that way means not being able to improve the contract on hands where that would be useful. Since we have 2♣ (et al) available for genuinely constructive hands, giving up on the non-constructive ones seems like a losing strategy.

I think you pass with that hand as partner has shown the strong ♠ overcall and you've bid your full values with your first bid. There's no reason to think partner has any ♥ and that ♥ will play better than ♠. Give partner something like ♠ KQJxxx ♥ x ♦ AQx ♣ Axx and you're making 8 or 9 tricks in ♠ while losing 6 or 7 tricks in ♥.

[MrAce]

 Winstonm, on 2017-July-14, 09:57, said:

My question on this board you bid 2S on is not the your well-reasoned bid but the question of whether or not you should bid at all?

It is a close decision Winstonm. I almost always bid when it is close decision, because bidding

a-can win by making
b-can win by being the par bid.
c-can win mostly by convincing opponents to make another move even when it is wrong to bid.
d-you do not get punished at 2 level when your side has at least 20 hcp at expert level. People do not do things that brings random outcomes at expert level.
e-as oppose to forums where people show you how double dummy defense defeats, in real life they usually suck at defense.

Everything I gained by experience tells me to bid on this deal. As you see the votes of world class players, they are split between pass and 2♠ but with significant majority voting for 2♠. Of course this does not prove anything but shows which action their experience favors.

[MrAce]

 nullve, on 2017-July-14, 05:13, said:

Let me try again:

Suppose Advancer has

a) 2 hcp, 1633
b) 6 hcp, 1633.

He knows that partner can have e.g.

c) 19 hcp, 4243
d) 19 hcp, 5143,

3♥ bid can not be 6 hcp. The most common usage of it shows a J high or Q high 6 card suit and out, that is pretty much it. With 6331 and 6 hcp you start 2♥.

[PhantomSac]

Count me in the wank camp, I hate bidding on hand 3 :/

It would be more tempting if they had a fit auction (like they had bid and raised), but I think our best chance of going plus on this hand is defending when they do not have a fit. Even if we catch a 4-3 spade fit or a 4-4 club fit we haven't gone plus yet.

I thought hand 1 was very interesting. Hand 4, are the people who are not bidding 6S trying to get to 7, or trying to get to hearts, or trying to stop in 5 (?). There are lots of fancy things you can do but it's going to be tough to diagnose when grand is good and you need a lot with no trump honors and only 1 ace, and not even a solid heart suit, so just bidding 6S seems practical to me.

[MrAce]

 PhantomSac, on 2017-July-14, 14:57, said:

Count me in the wank camp, I hate bidding on hand 3 :/

His main objection was on board 2. Not 3. Pass is of course very reasonable for me on 3 but I just can't find myself agree or have sympathy with his view on board 2.

[PhantomSac]

 MrAce, on 2017-July-14, 16:08, said:

His main objection was on board 2. Not 3.

wank said:

3 isnt very interesting imo. You need to be marking on the Nigel scale for anything except pass to score points

[MrAce]

Justin, what would you bid on #2 ? Do you think 3 ♥ is a gross overbid?

[PhantomSac]

 MrAce, on 2017-July-14, 16:21, said:

Justin, what would you bid on #2 ? Do you think 3 ♥ is a gross overbid?

I would bid 3H because I think double is penalty and I don't want to do that. It is an overbid in the sense that it can easily get us too high but I don't feel like I have any other option. I'm sure having some system like an artificial 2S bid here or something would be great but I have no such system and this auction is not high on my priority list to make obscure meanings since it doesn't come up that frequently.

Obviously a lot depends on how light you open NV etc, but I am not going to make a penalty X or a weak bid or pass so 3H is all I'm left with!

[wank]

Ah well yes I wouldn't be doubling if it were penalties. As you rightly say it's not an auction people have any agreements about.

[MrAce]

 wank, on 2017-July-14, 22:30, said:

Ah well yes I wouldn't be doubling if it were penalties. As you rightly say it's not an auction people have any agreements about.

We all would double if it was not penalties. Who wants to lose a whole level via 3♥ cue if DBL was such an obvious take-out?

[gnasher]

If you're acting on 3, why would you bid 2♠ rather than double? Or are you going to tell me that's for penalties too?

[gnasher]

On 2, I think double certainly should be for takeout. I don't think I've ever had a penalty double in this auction, from either side - this is one auction where they always have a solid overcall.

[MrAce]

 gnasher, on 2017-July-16, 00:33, said:

If you're acting on 3, why would you bid 2♠ rather than double? Or are you going to tell me that's for penalties too?

No, it's not for penalties but I expect pd to hold ♥ values and good defense with 1.5 NT hand (a bad 11 or a good 10). You can call it cooperative or optional or w/e you like.

 gnasher, on 2017-July-16, 00:39, said:

On 2, I think double certainly should be for takeout. I don't think I've ever had a penalty double in this auction, from either side - this is one auction where they always have a solid overcall.

What should be the best agreement and what pd would think without an agreement are two totally different things. If so many world class players think it is ambiguous without an agreement then maybe it is.
When there is no agreement, it needs two (too many) things to happen simultaneously.

• Your pd will be in same wavelength with you.
• Your pd will then decide that you are in same wavelength with him/her.

Most experts that I know would never risk such a thing at the table without an agreement. So double is pretty much out without agreement imo.

[PhantomSac]

 gnasher, on 2017-July-16, 00:39, said:

On 2, I think double certainly should be for takeout. I don't think I've ever had a penalty double in this auction, from either side - this is one auction where they always have a solid overcall.

heh I went for 1400 on this auction once in the trials, luckily my counterpart was the only other person to overcall 2H. I generally think it's a good auction to overcall somewhat aggressively since the opps don't usually have solid agreements. I agree that most people are usually pretty sound there though, but even after a solid overcall they could just be going for a number.

Agree that openers X is obviously takeout though, usually it's not good to play one persons X as penalty and one as takeout (and I'm not saying it necessarily is here), but I don't think it's illogical when they overcall in the only suit you've bid.

[rhm]

 gnasher, on 2017-July-16, 00:33, said:

If you're acting on 3, why would you bid 2♠ rather than double? Or are you going to tell me that's for penalties too?

Surprise, surprise I agree. I did double

Rainer Herrmann

[wank]

Btw wrt 3H being pre-emptive by 'expert consensus', I think that's an American thing. In my area it's invitational, stronger then 2 and with a 5th card which 2 might not have (2 being 8-11 with 4 or a bit less with 5 which I gather from a previous discussion you hate). I know that's the case for fluffy too, because it's come up before. When 3rd hand has passed I don't see the need for a pre-empt personally.