[smerriman]

In auctions such as:

1♥ - 1nt - 2nt

1♦ - 1♥ - 1nt - 2nt

it seems you'd typically want to pass to deny the invite, or bid 3nt game.

Assuming "standard" SAYC or 2/1 bidding (answer may of course differ in the first auction due to the forcing 1nt), is there a logical meaning to a bid like 3♣ or 3♦?

GIB seems to do this quite regularly, which doesn't necessarily say much, though I've also seen such a sequence with a human pickup partner.

It doesn't seem particularly useful for this to be nonforcing, since (at IMPs at the very least) 3nt seems to always be worth the gamble even if you don't have stoppers in all suits. But if forcing, it seems you'll end up in 3nt as well without having gained anything.

[Kaitlyn S]

 smerriman, on 2017-January-03, 00:45, said:

In auctions such as:

1♥ - 1nt - 2nt

1♦ - 1♥ - 1nt - 2nt

it seems you'd typically want to pass to deny the invite, or bid 3nt game.

Assuming "standard" SAYC or 2/1 bidding (answer may of course differ in the first auction due to the forcing 1nt), is there a logical meaning to a bid like 3♣ or 3♦?

GIB seems to do this quite regularly, which doesn't necessarily say much, though I've also seen such a sequence with a human pickup partner.

It doesn't seem particularly useful for this to be nonforcing, since (at IMPs at the very least) 3nt seems to always be worth the gamble even if you don't have stoppers in all suits. But if forcing, it seems you'll end up in 3nt as well without having gained anything.

1H P 1NT P 2NT P 3C should be non-forcing, a hard that doesn't think 3NT can make but thinks the clubs might be useful only if they are trump.

S-65 H-Q5 D-QJ7 C-JT8642.

You knight want to make an exception for 1S P 1NT P 2NT P 3H where the bid is better used to try to find a 5-3 heart fit on the way to 3NT.

S-65 H-KQ754 D-72 C-K943, a more frequent hand type than the one that wants to sign off in 3H.

I can't imagine bidding a minor after 1D-1H-1NT-2NT unless I had a sophisticated agreement, in other words, don't try this at hone.

[Zelandakh]

1♥ - 1NT; 2NT - 3♣ is just a weak hand with long clubs. You were not able to show this hand directly over 1♥ as 2♣ would have been forcing so this two-step process is required.
1♦ - 1♥; 1NT - 2NT; 3♣ can only logically be a hand with worries about spades and the idea that an alternative game contract to 3NT might be better. Presumably that would mean 3 hearts, so something like 2=3=4=4, ♠xx ♥AQx ♦Axxx ♣Axxx for example (if that would not be upgraded to a 1NT opener).

[ggwhiz]

 Zelandakh, on 2017-January-03, 03:32, said:

1♥ - 1NT; 2NT - 3♣ is just a weak hand with long clubs. You were not able to show this hand directly over 1♥ as 2♣ would have been forcing so this two-step process is required.
1♦ - 1♥; 1NT - 2NT; 3♣ can only logically be a hand with worries about spades and the idea that an alternative game contract to 3NT might be better. Presumably that would mean 3 hearts, so something like 2=3=4=4, ♠xx ♥AQx ♦Axxx ♣Axxx for example (if that would not be upgraded to a 1NT opener).

I agree that the first case is suggesting a hand that will play better in 3♣.

The second case should be forcing imo, usually a "maybe" between 3nt and 4♥ on a 5-2 fit where opener can show their strongest spade or diamond holding when weakish in the other and bid 3nt with both covered. Practised partnerships can decide to play this as an advanced cue with a 3 card limit raise and a mild slam try to be revealed at the next bid or use 3♥ as forcing over 2nt to show this.

[smerriman]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2017-January-03, 01:31, said:

1H P 1NT P 2NT P 3C should be non-forcing, a hard that doesn't think 3NT can make but thinks the clubs might be useful only if they are trump.

 Zelandakh, on 2017-January-03, 03:32, said:

1♥ - 1NT; 2NT - 3♣ is just a weak hand with long clubs. You were not able to show this hand directly over 1♥ as 2♣ would have been forcing so this two-step process is required.

 ggwhiz, on 2017-January-03, 09:39, said:

I agree that the first case is suggesting a hand that will play better in 3♣.

Alright - what about from opener's point of view? 3♣ may show a weak hand with clubs, but is it a sign-off? Several of the times this bidding sequence has arisen, 3nt turns out to be the right contract anyway - and of course, (in IMPs) it only needs to make just under half the time to be worth it. What sort of hands (if any) should opener correct to 3nt?

[ggwhiz]

 smerriman, on 2017-January-03, 14:20, said:

What sort of hands (if any) should opener correct to 3nt?

Ace or King 3rd of clubs and a 19 count. In other words, almost never but the 3♣ bidder might need to re-evaluate what they bid it on, ie KQxxxx should be an almost auto 3nt and KJTxxx should seriously consider it in context with the rest of the hand and if you go down, so be it.

There are few things worse for partnership trust than opener bidding 3nt here and going down.

[Kaitlyn S]

 smerriman, on 2017-January-03, 14:20, said:

What sort of hands (if any) should opener correct to 3nt?

There is no cut and dried answer, but what I would do is imagine a typical 3C "signoff" from partner and ask myself if I wanted to be in 3NT. Yes I know that this is very difficult for most players (me included.) However, trying to figure it out now may pay dividends later.

(1) I have AK65, KQ7, A652, K5. Partner thinks that 3C is better than 2NT or 3NT so imagine about 5-6 HCP and clubs unlikely to run.

Give him, for example, 94, A52, 63, J87432. 3NT is hopeless. 3C makes with clubs 3-2 as expected. (Note: if you give partner 94, A52, 63, Q87432, 3NT is still hopeless if the opponents hold up in clubs, however, I would have probably raised to 3NT with this hand rather than trying to sign off in clubs.)

The problem is that you can't get to responder's clubs. You just don't have enough clubs.

So the first requirement is that you have some semblance of a club fit to be able to establish and enjoy partner's clubs.

Is a club fit enough?

(2) I have KQ, QJ54, KJ73, AK4. Here, you probably have six club tricks if partner has the ♣Q or if clubs break 2-2, but where are your other three tricks coming from? Partner doesn't have much and by the time you set up 3 more tricks, you might find that the opponents have taken five already. I would let partner play 3C.

(3) I have A5, AK3, 109874, AK4. Now, if I get six club tricks, I make 3NT with my major suit tops. This is an easy 3NT bid. I might not make it, but it's worth a shot. Even with a club break and a spade ruff, I only see ten tricks playing with clubs as trump; perhaps I can establish a long diamond for my 11th trick but it's hard to believe that I can make 5C when I can't make 3NT.

(4) I have AQ, KJ4, AJ52, A965. Again, imagine 94, A52, 63, J87432 opposite. I give up a club, and on a 2-1 break I have five clubs and four outside tricks for nine tricks. Probably ten after the opening lead.

So what was the key? Long clubs and tricks to take off the top. Many holdings with four clubs will go, especially with a fitting honor or two. You need enough side tricks to think you'll take nine before they take five, but remember, if partner's clubs are lousy, they'll probably have a card outside, and if they're good, they would have already raised to 3NT instead of bidding 3C. Hands with three clubs to two high honors might go if they have some outside tricks. Hands with three clubs to one or no honors will rarely go, and hands with a doubleton club will rarely go.

I know that visualizing partner's hand is very difficult but hopefully these examples will impress on you that it's folly to even consider 3NT without a fit. If you would have made it, chances are that partner should have raised to 3NT instead of signing off in 3C.

[msjennifer]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2017-January-03, 16:16, said:

There is no cut and dried answer, but what I would do is imagine a typical 3C "signoff" from partner and ask myself if I wanted to be in 3NT. Yes I know that this is very difficult for most players (me included.) However, trying to figure it out now may pay dividends later.

(1) I have AK65, KQ7, A652, K5. Partner thinks that 3C is better than 2NT or 3NT so imagine about 5-6 HCP and clubs unlikely to run.

Give him, for example, 94, A52, 63, J87432. 3NT is hopeless. 3C makes with clubs 3-2 as expected. (Note: if you give partner 94, A52, 63, Q87432, 3NT is still hopeless if the opponents hold up in clubs, however, I would have probably raised to 3NT with this hand rather than trying to sign off in clubs.)

The problem is that you can't get to responder's clubs. You just don't have enough clubs.

So the first requirement is that you have some semblance of a club fit to be able to establish and enjoy partner's clubs.

Is a club fit enough?

(2) I have KQ, QJ54, KJ73, AK4. Here, you probably have six club tricks if partner has the ♣Q or if clubs break 2-2, but where are your other three tricks coming from? Partner doesn't have much and by the time you set up 3 more tricks, you might find that the opponents have taken five already. I would let partner play 3C.

(3) I have A5, AK3, 109874, AK4. Now, if I get six club tricks, I make 3NT with my major suit tops. This is an easy 3NT bid. I might not make it, but it's worth a shot. Even with a club break and a spade ruff, I only see ten tricks playing with clubs as trump; perhaps I can establish a long diamond for my 11th trick but it's hard to believe that I can make 5C when I can't make 3NT.

(4) I have AQ, KJ4, AJ52, A965. Again, imagine 94, A52, 63, J87432 opposite. I give up a club, and on a 2-1 break I have five clubs and four outside tricks for nine tricks. Probably ten after the opening lead.

So what was the key? Long clubs and tricks to take off the top. Many holdings with four clubs will go, especially with a fitting honor or two. You need enough side tricks to think you'll take nine before they take five, but remember, if partner's clubs are lousy, they'll probably have a card outside, and if they're good, they would have already raised to 3NT instead of bidding 3C. Hands with three clubs to two high honors might go if they have some outside tricks. Hands with three clubs to one or no honors will rarely go, and hands with a doubleton club will rarely go.

I know that visualizing partner's hand is very difficult but hopefully these examples will impress on you that it's folly to even consider 3NT without a fit. If you would have made it, chances are that partner should have raised to 3NT instead of signing off in 3C.

I think,personally of course,that the examples given give a clear idea on when to pass or bid 3NT on the 3C bid by the responder.In general,the opener has to realize that responder could not make a 2/1 bid as it is forcing to game as played by many and hence it must be a long weak suit which would be useless for 3NT contract.Almost everyone is anxious to accept an invitation usually but the 3 C bid suggests a hopelessness and that 3 C is or could be the only makesble contract.