[olegru]

I accidently look at bbo archive of one pair regularly playing in ACBL speedballs. What I noticed made me look closely … and more closely…
Sorry to say, but I have no doubts I spotted cheating pair. I sent message to BBO abuse, but it supposed to take some time before official decision will be taken. Until when, I guess, cheaters will continue to play. My problem is the following. We are playing in the same tournaments, so we have a non-zero chance to get to the same table. I don’t want to play with cheaters.
What would be the punishment for me if I will reject to play, saying to director (in private) the reason for rejection? Or should I take a cheaper road by closing the browser for 15 minutes?

[The_Badger]

olegru, on 2016-September-01, 09:47, said:

I accidently look at bbo archive of one pair regularly playing in ACBL speedballs. What I noticed made me look closely … and more closely…
Sorry to say, but I have no doubts I spotted cheating pair. I sent message to BBO abuse, but it supposed to take some time before official decision will be taken. Until when, I guess, cheaters will continue to play. My problem is the following. We are playing in the same tournaments, so we have a non-zero chance to get to the same table. I don’t want to play with cheaters.
What would be the punishment for me if I will reject to play, saying to director (in private) the reason for rejection? Or should I take a cheaper road by closing the browser for 15 minutes?

hi olegru,

Cheaters need to go. Period. I am not, and I'm sure there will be others too, who will be unfamiliar with ACBL speedballs. What are they doing to raise your suspicions? Or is that best left unsaid as things stand?

[diana_eva]

Not an official answer here, just an opinion. As long no verdict given, you have to treat them as not guilty. So you can't refuse to play them, you'd be disrupting the whole tourney. What is the TD supposed to do?

If you really don't want to play against them, check the list of registered pairs before the tourney starts and withdraw if they are there. Otherwise you can't just sit there and refuse to play. And if you log out then come back, you'd still get some results assigned for that round, played by subs who might be weaker than you.

[olegru]

Hi Diana, thanks for your reply. It is along the line I expected.

diana_eva, on 2016-September-01, 10:20, said:

What is the TD supposed to do?

Assign Ave+ for them, Ave- or even 0 for me and my partner. I don't mind. I want director to be aware there is a problem and I do not care about my results on the particular online tournament. I don't want to be punished for more than one current tournament.

By the way, well done in the first part of the challenge match against me.

[olegru]

The_Badger, on 2016-September-01, 09:59, said:

What are they doing to raise your suspicions? Or is that best left unsaid as things stand?

I believe I will not break forum rules if will provide examples without names, links and other stuff that could let identify the pair. If I am wrong, I hope Diana or other forum administrator would be able to delete my post. Apologies to them in advance.
***
[removed examples]

This post has been edited by diana_eva: 2016-September-01, 15:10
Reason for edit: removed examples

[diana_eva]

olegru, on 2016-September-01, 14:36, said:

I believe I will not break forum rules if will provide examples without names, links and other stuff that could let identify the pair. If I am wrong, I hope Diana or other forum administrator would be able to delete my post. Apologies to them in advance.
***

It is against the forum rules actually: http://www.bridgebas...rms-of-service/

Quote

7. Post with multiple hands to highlight an "unknown cheater" just to demonstrate that the hands are evidence that someone (unnamed) is not to be allowed.

[diana_eva]

Allow some time for investigation please, you've already sent your evidence and such cases are taken very seriously.

[diana_eva]

olegru, on 2016-September-01, 14:08, said:

Hi Diana, thanks for your reply. It is along the line I expected.



Assign Ave+ for them, Ave- or even 0 for me and my partner. I don't mind. I want director to be aware there is a problem and I do not care about my results on the particular online tournament. I don't want to be punished for more than one current tournament.

By the way, well done in the first part of the challenge match against me.

The TD can only sub you out. He can't adjust a whole round just because you say so.

And making the TD aware won't solve anything, at least not in the way you are suggesting (refuse to play because you suspect opps are cheating). It's not up to the TD to deal with this sort of thing right there at the table. All the TD can do is report suspicious hands, or forward complaints from players to acbl@bbo for further investigation.

[The_Badger]

Thanks for your replies, olegru and Diana,

Just hope BBO sort this matter out promptly for you, olegru.

[Left2Right]

One of the principal reasons you will never see me in a BBO tournament is this outdated policy. I have played in a BBO individual where one player will get into a problematic auction, wend his way deliberately into an obviously bizarre 7NT (doubled by my inexperienced partner). The cheater will play a few tricks of the hand and halt play, knowing that when he runs out the clock, the BBO software will give him an average. And yes, this has happened more than once.

When you complain to abuse, you will get no satisfaction because the results are completely hidden.

When Norway's Boye Brogeland discovered secret signals, he took the matter public and forced the powers that be to take action; action that was publicly announced because of the pressure. Many of us know of this problem and the resulting expulsions (and yes the action is ongoing).

BBO needs to take the hint and modernize.

In the meantime, we can vote with our feet on this policy. There are plenty of other ways to enjoy bridge.

[helene_t]

Left2Right, on 2016-September-02, 09:27, said:

I have played in a BBO individual where one player will get into a problematic auction, wend his way deliberately into an obviously bizarre 7NT (doubled by my inexperienced partner). The cheater will play a few tricks of the hand and halt play, knowing that when he runs out the clock, the BBO software will give him an average.

This depends on the kind of tournament. In the better tournaments, such as ACBL tourneys, the director will adjust to a realistic result based on the contract and whatever happened before the board was time-outed, or to whatever would happen if four GIBs took over at time out.

[Caitlynne]

I am sorry to doubt your report, but it is very difficult to collect beyond reasonable doubt evidence of whether a pair is cheating simply by looking at results. Indeed, a pair's failure to make errors is NOT evidence of cheating, particularly on BBO where there is no pressure as the stakes are low to virtually non-existent.

Likewise, a pair that bids particularly well and virtually always gets to the best contract is not necessarily cheating. Maybe they just have good methods and execute well.

Rather, to establish cheating beyond a reasonable doubt, you would need extraordinary evidence both positive and negative to support a hypothesis of cheating. Positive evidence would be counting successes - things like strange leads that work or failure to make the "obvious" normal lead when it would cost. Or blast bids that are always right - never off two losers. Likewise, you have to count failures - does the pair ever do something abnormal that seems unjustified that gets a bad result?

As you can see, it takes an extraordinary large sample of hands to provide the necessary evidence. I seriously doubt you have studied THOUSANDS of hands.

My advice is to be an adult, keep your suspicions to yourself, and just deal with it.

[nige1]

IMO, it's breaking the laws of Bridge to refuse to play against a pair and even worse to call them "cheats". Better not to enter the competition (or to withdraw from it).

[olegru]

Hi Caitlynne.
You can believe or not, but I know what I am doing when I collecting evidence.
I would not dream of sharing my suspicions unless I am sure than any more or less competent player who will check their archive of games will satisfied with hypothesis about their cheating beyond the reasonable doubts.

It was not good results, failures to make mistakes or exact biding that makes that pair suspicious.
It is exactly what you said: strange leads that works (100% About 30% of leads are strange, 10% are ridiculous after the bidding. I did not find a single bid that not fit the best to the partner suit); blast bids that are always right (what 2 losers are you talking about? I saw 5(five!) boards they leaped to grand slam!) I counted failures. 0(zero)!

You are right, if cheaters are smart it could take thousands of hands and nobody will still know for sure.
It was not a case here. I checked 84 (7*12) boards, it is more than enough in that particular case - stats is screaming.

[GrahamJson]

Caitlynne, on 2016-September-02, 12:47, said:

I am sorry to doubt your report, but it is very difficult to collect beyond reasonable doubt evidence of whether a pair is cheating simply by looking at results. Indeed, a pair's failure to make errors is NOT evidence of cheating, particularly on BBO where there is no pressure as the stakes are low to virtually non-existent.

Likewise, a pair that bids particularly well and virtually always gets to the best contract is not necessarily cheating. Maybe they just have good methods and execute well.

Rather, to establish cheating beyond a reasonable doubt, you would need extraordinary evidence both positive and negative to support a hypothesis of cheating. Positive evidence would be counting successes - things like strange leads that work or failure to make the "obvious" normal lead when it would cost. Or blast bids that are always right - never off two losers. Likewise, you have to count failures - does the pair ever do something abnormal that seems unjustified that gets a bad result?

As you can see, it takes an extraordinary large sample of hands to provide the necessary evidence. I seriously doubt you have studied THOUSANDS of hands.

My advice is to be an adult, keep your suspicions to yourself, and just deal with it.

Regrettably there are some players who you only need to watch for three or four boards to realise that they are cheating. I have seen one pair in particular, actually I think they are both the same player, who clearly can see all four hands. They almost never get a bad board. I have seen them make a three level overcall on Jxx, only for partner to turn up with KQxxx. If they see that oppo can make 4S they will either open 1S or, if oppo get in first, make low level penalty doubles, which partner takes out, to convince oppo that cards lay badly for them. Of course this pair are an extreme example, but I have seen others who are clearly playing double dummy. For example, jumping to seven with a trump suit of AKJxxx opposite xx only to drop the doubleton queen offside. Or bidding RKKB, find an ace missing but still bidding seven. Partner then turns up with an undisclosed void.

I have reported at least three players to BBO Abuse. One seems to have been banned, another (the "pair" mentioned above) seem to have had some action taken against them, although they still play occasionally, and one continues to play.

My advice is to report all suspicions to Abuse. We need to rid BBO of these people. Goodness knows what they get out of it.

[Bbradley62]

What would happen at a real-life ACBL tournament if you state that you will not play against a certain pair, if you know that pair has been reported to the Recorder but has not had official action taken against them?

[helene_t]

olegru, on 2016-September-01, 14:08, said:

I want director to be aware there is a problem

I don't think this is an effective way of making the TD aware of the problem.

Put yourself in the TD's place: some random accuses some other random for cheating, not based on the board he just played but with reference to the accused's history in other ACBL tourneys. Obviously, the TD doesn't have time to verify the evidence.

[olegru]

Hi Bbradley62,
Your analogy is not as close as it seems on the first glance.
If I know that some pair was been reported to the recorder all what I know is that somebody suspected that pair or some incident took place. Even if I am the somebody who reported, I am still not in the position to know the pair in question cheats. The task to proof cheating by reasonable standards in F2F game is the next to impossible for a regular player. All what he could do is to send suspicious incidents to recorder. I guess majority of calls to recorder is just noise.
It is very different from online game where a player has opportunity to check archive of suspected pair card by card. I cannot tell for other people, but I find inappropriate to send request to check a pair, until I am very sure they are cheating. By ”very sure” I mean the standard “beyond the reasonable doubts.” Of course, fact that I satisfied with conclusion beyond the reasonable doubts, does not necessary mean that 11 other people (or, in this case, people in authority position) will feel the same, but … according the forum rules I cannot give you evidence to check if you will be convinced beyond the reasonable doubts, you can just believe me or not.
Another difference that in F2F tournaments no physical possibility to state that you will not play against a certain pair in such a way that nobody except the director will know about it.


Hi Helene_t,
You are right, TD doesn't have time to verify the evidence during the tournament, but responsible TD can do it after. In this particular case it will not take too much of TD personal time to realize that pair should be reported to authority and removed from acbl speedballs game ASAP. (Not sure if I am allowed to submit statistics of their results in order to prove the urgency.) I guess people on authority will check the request from TD with more respect than request of some random accuser like me.

[diana_eva]

olegru, on 2016-September-07, 13:11, said:

I guess people on authority will check the request from TD with more respect than request of some random accuser like me.

That is incorrect. Your request or some other player's will be taken just as seriously.

This post has been edited by diana_eva: 2016-September-07, 13:34

[olegru]

Hi Diana,
Thanks for information, sorry for being wrong. Do you know if requests like that handling by bridgebase employee or by ACBL?