[Stefan_O]

If you play 2♦ multi (weak, 6 card major -- or maybe some strong hands, too),
and opps overcall in a major,
what is the usual/popular meaning of responders Double?

Like: 2♦ - (2♠) - X

Is it
(1) Penalty-double. I have good spades behind overcaller.
(2) Asks opener to Pass only if spades is his long suit, otherwise describe his hand.
?

[gwnn]

I think standard/best is (1) but many people new to Multi will assume (2). It's a good one to discuss and a bad one to spring on partner.

[helene_t]

Dutch textbooks (at least those of them I read) recommend (2), but I agree with gwnn that (1) is better.

[Vampyr]

helene_t, on 2016-May-26, 05:54, said:

Dutch textbooks (at least those of them I read) recommend (2), but I agree with gwnn that (1) is better.

Yeah, I see (2) a lot. Seems pretty poor in a frequency basis!

[sfi]

(2) is fairly normal in my experience, with the expectation that if partner has the other major I would like to compete to at least the three level. Not sure why it's so bad - it can be hard to compete effectively in partner's major without it.

[RunemPard]

IMO it depends on how often you open multi on a 5 card suit..the frequency goes up a lot when 5 card suits are included. Even with 5 card suits, option 2 is still most likely better. If you only ever open on a 6 card suit, then yea..option #1 no doubt. You are sitting behind the overcall with the strong hand and want to be able to finish the work your partner's preempt has done.

[Stefan_O]

To me, the advantage of playing (2) is you never have much of a problem what to bid.
In the sit above, the worst thing that can happen is, when you are loaded with spades, you may have to let them play 2♠ undoubled, rather than doubled.

Playing (1), the scary downside is, when you are short in Spades and have 3, 4, 5, or even 6 hearts, and competitive or game-going hand if partner has hearts.
You probably bid and hope that opener has hearts -- but sometimes it turns out that opener also has Spades, and you risk a disastrous result.

So I can understand why text-books recommend (2)...

[nige1]

Stefan_O, on 2016-May-26, 05:13, said:

If you play 2♦ multi (weak, 6 card major -- or maybe some strong hands, too),and opps overcall in a major, what is the usual/popular meaning of responders Double?
Like: 2♦ - (2♠) - X
(1) Penalty-double. I have good spades behind overcaller.
(2) Asks opener to Pass only if spades is his long suit, otherwise describe his hand.

IMO Pass/Correct i.e. T/O is best -- which is consistent with our methods over Michaels e.g.
(1♥) 2♥! (3♦) Double = P/C (In case RHO overcalled in a suit of partner's).

[Zelandakh]

gwnn, on 2016-May-26, 05:37, said:

I think standard/best is (1) but many people new to Multi will assume (2). It's a good one to discuss and a bad one to spring on partner.

I think standard is (2) but many new to Multi will assume (1) as they are used to any double after a preempt being penalty. Double is typically what you do with a hand that would raise hearts if the auction had started 2♥ - (2♠).

[gwnn]

Ok interesting. You mean "in case 2, double is typically what you do..." I think there was a thread about this and most good players seemed to favour (1). I don't think it makes sense to reserve double just for the off chance the overcall is in partner's suit. I'm totally fine just assuming that the two majors are different and penalizing opps when I have good spades and a good hand.

[sfi]

Here's a hand from a national teams competition a few years ago:

---

If you play double as penalty, you have no good course of action. You want to compete if partner has spades but stay out if not. If you play double as pass/correct, you have an easy way to compete.

Or you could take the action my teammate took, which comes with a warning label for anyone faint of heart:

Spoiler

---

North thought the odds were high that partner had spades. Why East passed I'll never understand, but it was a good thing because the auction at our table was:

---

We managed +1700 and would have been unimpressed to lose 7 IMPs had East doubled at the other table. But no. -700 was good for 14 IMPs.

It was only one hand, with a couple of - shall we say - questionable decisions. But the second agreement would have avoided the entire fiasco.

[yunling]

My experience is that (1) is not playable if you often open 2♦ with a 5 card major. My partner has caught opponents in 2♠X a number of times.
Dunno which is better if you play a sound 2♦

[nekthen]

Another interesting question is what is 2♠?
I play it as strong with shortage in ♠
If the 2♠ is natural, then it seems logical to play double as pass or correct and 2N as lebensohl

[manudude03]

sfi, on 2016-May-27, 04:49, said:

Here's a hand from a national teams competition a few years ago:

---

If you play double as penalty, you have no good course of action. You want to compete if partner has spades but stay out if not. If you play double as pass/correct, you have an easy way to compete.

Or you could take the action my teammate took, which comes with a warning label for anyone faint of heart:

Spoiler

---

North thought the odds were high that partner had spades. Why East passed I'll never understand, but it was a good thing because the auction at our table was:

---

We managed +1700 and would have been unimpressed to lose 7 IMPs had East doubled at the other table. But no. -700 was good for 14 IMPs.

It was only one hand, with a couple of - shall we say - questionable decisions. But the second agreement would have avoided the entire fiasco.

Seems like an obvious pass. We can always bid 4S later, and if 2H does end up being the final contract, then they are likely either in a silly contract or making game.

[Stefan_O]

nekthen, on 2016-May-27, 11:16, said:

Another interesting question is what is 2♠?
I play it as strong with shortage in ♠

Seems complicated.... what do you then bid when you have a normal 2♥ or 2♠ overcall?

The standard defence against 2♦ Multi when you have a hand suited for take-out Double of either Hearts or Spades
is that you first PASS, and then make a take-out Double on the next round, if opener shows your short suit.

[Zelandakh]

Stefan_O, on 2016-May-28, 05:52, said:

The standard defence against 2♦ Multi

...depends on where you come from. The traditional standard in the UK is Dixon, in which 2M shows a takeout of the other major. The traditional standard in the US is/was for 2♥ to be a takeout of hearts. Arguably the best defence includes a double that looks rather a lot like the Multi 2♦ itself and such methods are also popular in some circles. I know it is difficult not to think of what you personally know as being standard somehow but the world is a big place and things do tend to vary from place to place and from one level of play to another.