[Stefan_O]

[lycier]

Hi Stefan_O :

I am glad to see your fourth thread on this forum.

1- In accordance with established practice, we don't use the hand screenshot as possible, we usually use hand diagram on this forum.

2- You thought cuebid 2♥ was very strange, but I would tell you that this cuebid was very correct and normal on Gib CC, the hand which 2♥ showed 11+hcp had nothing to do with ♥ suit actually.

[steve2005]

I disagree. 2♥ will be of no help in getting to the right contract.
Gib is forcing to 3N, and likely 3N it will be. So Gib is saying 9 tricks in NT looks good.
Well if 9 tricks in NT looks good lets play 1NX. Say we only get 8 tricks that's still +500 better than game!

[Bbradley62]

 lycier, on 2016-May-07, 20:26, said:

In accordance with established practice, we don't use the hand screenshot as possible, we usually use hand diagram on this forum.

It's okay to use a screenshot instead of loading a hand diagram; sometimes it is your only option. (That's probably not the case here, since I'm mostly thinking about when you use the "Just Play Bridge" feature without logging in.) In this case, it might be nice to see the explanation of the double. I would expect it to be takeout with 11-12 total points, but then 13 points in East shouldn't be forcing to 3N. But, I agree with Stephen's analysis that it would be hard to imagine a hand where EW can make game and wouldn't prefer to defend 1Nx.

[lycier]

Hi everyone
Glad to see two replies in the short time, I would say that as a sort of responding approach, Gib always make a cuebid opening suit to show its exact 11hcp hand , even in the passed hand. Now I would better take a exact example.

---

That's to say cuebid 2♥ is a bid of Gib bidding system.
Any ideas?

[lycier]

 Bbradley62, on 2016-May-07, 22:25, said:

It's okay to use a screenshot instead of loading a hand diagram; sometimes it is your only option. (That's probably not the case here, since I'm mostly thinking about when you use the "Just Play Bridge" feature without logging in.) In this case, it might be nice to see the explanation of the double. I would expect it to be takeout with 11-12 total points, but then 13 points in East shouldn't be forcing to 3N. But, I agree with Stephen's analysis that it would be hard to imagine a hand where EW can make game and wouldn't prefer to defend 1Nx.

Dear friend, I have been wondering why you're trying to prevent me from the data related to the hand. You would better know that the data are really very very important, it can include far more informations on the truth. This is a scientific approach of perceiving the world.
If anyone always emphasis on a issue only in the one hand, it's very very easy to get one-sided conclusions.

As for you said " I agree with Stephen's analysis that it would be hard to imagine a hand where EW can make game and wouldn't prefer to defend 1Nx.", I think there is no perfect system in the world, it is a system approach,only. It is very difficult for Gibs to learm the correct judgements on almost of the situations completely and it is not practical to fantasy that hoping Gibs own strong skill of world class players in the current. I believe it can achieve in the future, not right now.

[1eyedjack]

 lycier, on 2016-May-07, 23:48, said:

Hi everyone
Glad to see two replies in the short time, I would say that as a sort of responding approach, Gib always make a cuebid opening suit to show its exact 11hcp hand , even in the passed hand. Now I would better take a exact example.

---

That's to say cuebid 2♥ is a bid of Gib bidding system.
Any ideas?

My personal preference would be for 3S in this auction to be forcing and I would have bid a non-forcing but constructive 2S first time in response to double. Before you jump on me for saying that, I accept that this is not GIB way. Where the existing system is not entirely outrageous, then fixing GIB bugs within the existing system is the priority over changing the system, so let's not lose our way just over this comment. I just could not help expressing a preference.

My main point of this response is to ask why you have posted this hand? The sequence leading up to the cue bid is not remotely similar to the one that started this thread. If there is a point to this hand it belongs in a thread of its own. But if you want to draw a parallel between the two sequences, at least give East the same hand in each case. I would be interested to know if he would pass the double in your sequence, as perhaps he should have done in the OP

[EDIT] Never mind, it seems that you posted this hand in the wrong thread. This hand was in another one

[Stefan_O]

 Bbradley62, on 2016-May-07, 22:25, said:

I would expect it to be takeout with 11-12 total points, but then 13 points in East shouldn't be forcing to 3N.

Curious... how do you count 13 points here?

I see 11 HCP and no known trump-fit.
Is it the ♥-length that counts for 2 points?

[Stefan_O]

 Bbradley62, on 2016-May-07, 22:25, said:

In this case, it might be nice to see the explanation of the double. I would expect it to be takeout with 11-12 total points, but then 13 points in East shouldn't be forcing to 3N. But, I agree with Stephen's analysis that it would be hard to imagine a hand where EW can make game and wouldn't prefer to defend 1Nx.

When I now check the hand-viewer, the description of Double (was from a Passed hand here) says:

"Takeout double -- 3+ ♣; 3+ ♦; 2- ♥; 4"

Yes, obviously it is truncated at the end...
I guess this is an issue only when the hand is stored for post-mortem viewing, not during actual play...?

[lycier]

 Stefan_O, on 2016-May-08, 02:38, said:

Curious... how do you count 13 points here?

I see 11 HCP and no known trump-fit.
Is it the ♥-length that counts for 2 points?

Two Ace plus a ♥K equals 11hcp.
Singleton ♠4 equals 2 TPs.
So there is 13 TPs in total in this hand.

Would I ask for you to tell us your hand link?
I want to try to investigate its reasons.

[Stefan_O]

 lycier, on 2016-May-08, 03:00, said:

Two Ace plus a ♥K equals 11hcp.
Singleton ♠4 equals 2 TPs.
So there is 13 TPs in total in this hand.

You only count for shortness, when you have known trump-fit.
A singleton has no particular value in NT.
If you count something here, it should be for suit-lengths or quality, not shortness.

[lycier]

 Stefan_O, on 2016-May-08, 03:14, said:

You only count for shortness, when you have known trump-fit.
A singleton has no particular value in NT.
If you count something, it should be for suit-lengths/quality, not shortness.

Very very good reply.
- Personally I totally agree with your opinions.
- However we need to respect Gib CC - that's to say there is no length/quality point on Gib CC, but Gibs only count for short suit point.

Any ideas?

[lycier]

You would better visit Understanding GIB Bid Descriptions.

[Stefan_O]

OK, another issue that should be fixed then,
if it really adds short-suit points without seeing any trump-fit.

[1eyedjack]

 Stefan_O, on 2016-May-08, 05:57, said:

OK, another issue that should be fixed then,
if it really adds short-suit points without seeing any trump-fit.

It does

It even adds short suit points in suits bid by partner.

Long-standing issue

[lycier]

 Stefan_O, on 2016-May-08, 05:57, said:

OK, another issue that should be fixed then,
if it really adds short-suit points without seeing any trump-fit.

I'm perfectly surprise to read your reply which is similar to my point of view in the past, but some players didn't support me, many people can't understand it.
Adding length points is more accurate than short-suit points before don't comfirm suit fit.
Only with any trumph fit at dummy, adding short-sit points would be wise.

[Bbradley62]

 Stefan_O, on 2016-May-08, 02:38, said:

 Bbradley62, on 2016-May-07, 22:25, said:

It's okay to use a screenshot instead of loading a hand diagram; sometimes it is your only option. (That's probably not the case here, since I'm mostly thinking about when you use the "Just Play Bridge" feature without logging in.) In this case, it might be nice to see the explanation of the double. I would expect it to be takeout with 11-12 total points, but then 13 points in East shouldn't be forcing to 3N. But, I agree with Stephen's analysis that it would be hard to imagine a hand where EW can make game and wouldn't prefer to defend 1Nx.

Curious... how do you count 13 points here?

I see 11 HCP and no known trump-fit.
Is it the ♥-length that counts for 2 points?

As Jack pointed out, and as Lycier linked for you to see GIB's methods, GIB counts the original East hand as 13 total points, and doesn't revalue during the auction based on fit or lack thereof. This is apparently never going to change.

However, I didn't base my comment on the actual hand; I based my comment on the explanation provided, which says that 2♥ can be bid with 13 total points. Opposite a hand that couldn't open, this combination is not enough to declare a game force.

[Bbradley62]

 lycier, on 2016-May-08, 00:24, said:

Dear friend, I have been wondering why you're trying to prevent me from the data related to the hand. You would better know that the data are really very very important, it can include far more informations on the truth. This is a scientific approach of perceiving the world.
If anyone always emphasis on a issue only in the one hand, it's very very easy to get one-sided conclusions.

As several others have recently pointed out, you have become a great big pain in the ass in this forum, between posting many variations on a theme that only serve to confuse the issue, and criticizing humans' bids that have nothing to do with the GIB-related issues being reported. Posting an image showing only the relevant GIB hand that made a bid and questioning whether that bid is appropriate is a perfectly good way of preventing you from saying "but you shouldn't have made the prior bid".

[lycier]

Your praise of me was pretty exaggerated,HaHa