[AyunuS]

http://tinyurl.com/gqgc2t8

IMPs, advanced robots.

Let's see, something went wrong. They have too many total points to not find a game. Either the 2♠ bid needs to show just a few more points, or else east needs to be willing to invite to 4♠. Personally I don't see why east wouldn't invite, seeing as it has 11 total points opposite a 12+, meaning they have at least 23 points so even if they do get stuck at 3♠ they should be totally fine. The drawback of that is almost nothing compared to what could be gained by finding a game, which they likely have.

[1eyedjack]

Personally I would have opened the west hand 1N. But that is a bit avant garde for gib. In my opinion if east judges that he is not worth 3S here he should have doubled 2c (but I agree with you)

[Stephen Tu]

IMO new suit by opener after an 11+ responder 2 level free bid should be forcing 1 round. But raise/rebid first suit/2nt NF and limited.

[lycier]

Stephen Tu, on 2016-March-08, 04:44, said:

IMO new suit by opener after an 11+ responder 2 level free bid should be forcing 1 round. But raise/rebid first suit/2nt NF and limited.

---

I think:
1- it is non-forcing for opener to rebid new suit 2♠ because 2♠ is a competitive bidding, so Gib CC here is fair in fact.
2- after responder overcalled 2♥ to show 11+TPs, opener should know the fact they are sure to force to game since opener had extra values, opener should use forcing-to-game bid to show the hand, reverse bid 3♠ to force to game.

Is my idea reasonable?

[Stephen Tu]

lycier, on 2016-March-08, 07:27, said:

I think:
1- it is non-forcing for opener to rebid new suit 2♠ because 2♠ is a competitive bidding, so Gib CC here is fair in fact.
2- after responder overcalled 2♥ to show 11+TPs, opener should know the fact they are sure to force to game since opener had extra values, opener should use forcing-to-game bid to show the hand, reverse bid 3♠ to force to game.

Is my idea reasonable?

Not in my opinion. The only benefit of 2♠ non-forcing is if it's the last making spot. With 11+ in responder, this is going to be very rare. Responder would want to raise in most cases anyway, unless 2♠ was limited to say 12 counts, and the worst 13 counts, not accepting any game tries. Forcing opener to jump deprives you of bidding space and the use of 3♠ for other purposes.

On other auctions, forcing opener to jump or cue to force would leave opener a choice between jumping past 3nt, or the cue bid being super-uninformative because responder would have no idea about the second suit held.

[Bbradley62]

1eyedjack, on 2016-March-08, 02:17, said:

Personally I would have opened the west hand 1N. But that is a bit avant garde for gib...

It is in the GIB System Notes that he doesn't open 1N with 17HCP and a 5card major. Does he, in practice, also not open 1N with 17HCP and a 5card minor?

[Stephen Tu]

Bbradley62, on 2016-March-09, 07:12, said:

It is in the GIB System Notes that he doesn't open 1N with 17HCP and a 5card major. Does he, in practice, also not open 1N with 17HCP and a 5card minor?

I think GIB is just kind of rigid in that it doesn't like to open 1nt with semi-balanced shapes (more than one doubleton, 5422s, 6322s). So 2335 is OK for 1nt but 4252 isn't.

With this hand, holding spades, it's kind of OK in my mind, you can rebid 1♠ over 1♥, the only real question is what to do after 1♦-1♥-1♠-1nt, I suppose this hand is just good enough to raise to 2nt, but if it were somewhat weaker than perhaps one would be better off just opening 1nt to begin with. Personally I tend to open 1nt more often with 2=4=5=2 than 4=2=(52).

[1eyedjack]

I once opened 1N (weak) with 4-2-2-5 shape, arguably the least suitable of the 5422 shapes. Turned out we got a great score when it cut the opponents out of Hearts and they could have outbid us. Just dumb luck, I know. Anyway, oppo got really upset with steam emissions and all. Central to his objection was "you have no rebid problems by opening 1C". I riposted with "that is at best a neutral argument, because neither do I have any rebid problems after opening 1N". He had no response to that, and had to go away and steam in peace.

[iandayre]

I can't imagine why East didn't start with a negative double. As far as whether 2S should be forcing, there's a good argument for it, as Stephen said, but not high on my list of changes GIB needs. The change REALLY needed is to change the description of 2S. If it is NF it needs to be limited to no more that 14. Saying it can have up to 21, then allowing it to be passed, is a trap for the human player.

[Bbradley62]

iandayre, on 2016-March-09, 15:02, said:

... Saying it can have up to 21, then allowing it to be passed, is a trap for the human player.

But this is a systemwide problem. It shouldn't just be fixed quickly in one place, but rather researched and fixed everywhere it occurs.

[1eyedjack]

iandayre, on 2016-March-09, 15:02, said:

I can't imagine why East didn't start with a negative double.

I think that it follows a principle, with which I approve, that with a 5 card suit and strong enough to force you bid rather than double. Doubling then following up with your long suit (not yet having found a fit) would then be non-forcing. There are some who reverse this method ("negative free bids") but that is a minority style.

[iandayre]

1eyedjack, on 2016-March-09, 23:18, said:

I think that it follows a principle, with which I approve, that with a 5 card suit and strong enough to force you bid rather than double. Doubling then following up with your long suit (not yet having found a fit) would then be non-forcing. There are some who reverse this method ("negative free bids") but that is a minority style.

I don't play NFB's but I think that a negative double followed by a 2H call over 2D would describe this hand well.

[iandayre]

Bbradley62, on 2016-March-09, 21:55, said:

But this is a systemwide problem. It shouldn't just be fixed quickly in one place, but rather researched and fixed everywhere it occurs.

Of course you're right. I took the lead here in trying to get BBO to implement improvements to GIB more quickly and effectively. I got a response from the top. Now we wait. I achieved the newly minted ACBL rank of "Sapphire Life Master" as a result of playing with GIB, and I appreciate the opportunity. I hope we won't be disappointed with BBO's next moves.

[iandayre]

And here is another hand with the same theme. Opener's 3C can show up to 22, but the 1NT responder can (and does here) pass it. Gotcha again.

http://tinyurl.com/heps63g

[lycier]

iandayre, on 2016-March-11, 14:38, said:

And here is another hand with the same theme. Opener's 3C can show up to 22, but the 1NT responder can (and does here) pass it. Gotcha again.

http://tinyurl.com/heps63g

I think it is not same theme, new thread for a new issue, meanwhile I found a new issue , see my thread :same bid with different explanations on the different table.
We can go on our discussion there.

[iandayre]

lycier, on 2016-March-11, 19:41, said:

I think it is not same theme, new thread for a new issue, meanwhile I found a new issue , see my thread :same bid with different explanations on the different table.
We can go on our discussion there.

If I said the sky was blue, you'd say it was purple. I may respond to your posts in the future but I have no interest in your comments.