[1eyedjack]

bridgepali, on 2016-April-01, 17:37, said:

Yes.

I am putting words in your mouth, but I assume that this is based on your still possessing a Queen, but in another suit

[Lovera]

bridgepali, on 2016-April-01, 14:32, said:

You don't seem convinced by the negative results you have experienced that opening a hand under trump play with a five card strain and less than 13 pts. is a losing proposition. Reading your narrative "Opening with very little" I get the sense that the Rule of 20 is be being taken out of context. The Rule of 20 is a guideline for opening marginal hands and reads, "When the hcpts.(face cards) plus the number of cards in the two longest strains adds to twenty or more, open the bidding.". In other words, a hand that has xxxxx, xxxx, xx, xx, or xxxxx, xxxx, xxx, x, or xxxxx, xxxx, xxxx, <> and 11 hcpts or more can be opened.

The Rule of 20 is an adaptation from the point count method developed and institutionalized by Goren and associates. They valued a doubleton at one point, a singleton at two points and a void at three points. When applied to the hand examples in the previous paragraph, each one is worth more than 13 pts., the amount of points universally recommended for opening a hand. The Rule of 20 supplements the arsenal for those players who do not use shortness points, as purported by the ACBL, for opening hands to expedite games.

Outside of face cards there are very few point valued altering affects to add to or subtract from hcpts. leaving it to a player's experience to determine a hand's point value. For some its a challenge. For others its discouraging and in my opinion the leading cause for not becoming a devotee to the game.


One point can make a difference between making and not making a contract. I am in the process of perfecting a point count method in which point altering affects are numerically standardized. If a computer can do it, so can a human. Here's a tip: reduce a response hand's point value by 3 pts. for a singleton king, queen or doubleton queen except when it is with it's ace. It will help control overbidding.

If you would like to know more about the approach I am taking to numerically standardizing point counting send an e-mail to bridgepal@comcast.net and I will reply with a listing of verified point value altering affects for trump and no=trump play.

Hi bridgepali,where you said : " One point can make a difference between making and not making a contract. I am in the process of perfecting a point count method in which point altering affects are numerically standardized. If a computer can do it, so can a human. Here's a tip: reduce a response hand's point value by 3 pts. for a singleton king, queen or doubleton queen except when it is with it's ace. It will help control overbidding." Can you put, than three examples of hands reponse to watch and understand better what are trying to explain ? Thanks.

[1eyedjack]

Bridgepali said:

I am in the process of perfecting a point count method {snip}. If a computer can do it, so can a human.

Hmmm
There is scant evidence to suggest that a human can do anything that a computer can do.
There is scant evidence to suggest that a computer has achieved this particular objective.
Combining the two, the quoted passage does not mean a great deal, to me.

{edited to change name of author of quote}

[Lovera]

1eyedjack, on 2016-April-03, 02:04, said:

Hmmm
There is scant evidence to suggest that a human can do anything that a computer can do.
There is scant evidence to suggest that a computer has achieved this particular objective.
Combining the two, the quoted passage does not mean a great deal, to me.

Hi 1eyedjack, sorry but the phrase quoted in green on 3/4/16 in post #43 is by bridgepauli and not mine(Lovera), bye.

[Lovera]

Following post #42 and also considering post #47 too it'd help to see cards in, let's say N and S as hand responding ,in the form ♠, etc. it being trump the long suit.

This post has been edited by Lovera: 2016-April-04, 09:28

[1eyedjack]

Lovera, on 2016-April-03, 07:22, said:

Hi 1eyedjack, sorry but the phrase quoted in green on 3/4/16 in post #43 is by bridgepauli and not mine(Lovera), bye.

you are right - I shall go back and edit

[bridgepali]

The following tips are predicated on a strain having a 5/3 footprint.

Under trump play, on knowing the combined hands have a 5/4 footprint in a perspective trump strain, add 3 pts. to the hand's point count. Subtract 3 pts. from hand's point count on knowing a perspective trump strain will have less than three cards in one of the combined hands.

Under no-trump play when a hand has two of the top four honors, the jack, the ten or both embedded amongst four or five cards of a strain, add 3 pts. to the hand's point count.

Said calculations are made prior to making a bid and are intended to produce a more accurate point count to match-up against the Combined Hand Equivalent Chart* (points to tricks) to come up with the optimum bid level or pass.

*Do not know who to credit for it.

[billw55]

bridgepali, on 2016-April-03, 15:31, said:

I agree with these two parts of your post.

[bridgepali]

Based on writings and brochures pure numerical point counting evolved during the 1940's. For it was during that decade it was determined that under no-trump play a minimum of 20 pts. would usually take seven tricks, 23 pts. eight tricks, 26 pts. nine tricks and so on every three point increment up to twelve/thirteen tricks. It was also determined at that time that under trump play the 3 pt. scale would usually take one more trick than under no-trump play. Interestingly, 3pts is the average point value Milton Work placed on the ace, king and queen.

Out of this came the Combined Hand Equivalent Chart, a pure numeric point counting method equating points to tricks. Why more players today are not using it I find hard to comprehend. For the method takes the guess work out of bidding.

It is common knowledge that card formations affect point count, yet are not considered apart of it. It would seem the card info incorporated with a bid would be useful if it's affect were known. Example: Under the 5 card Modern American Bidding System, when an opener opens with one of a major the strain is to have five cards. Knowing that and knowing whenever an opener's partner has four cards of the opening strain an additional trick can be taken, opener's partner can increase the response support bid by 3 pts.

To date with the use of a computer software program I have documented thirteen card formations under trump play that affect point counting and eight under no-trump play. The majority having a one trick plus/minus affect.

It is not my intent to convert players from their point counting method. Rather to inform, especially beginners, of a simpler more accurate method. For if I hadn't found this method for counting points, I would have giving bridge up shortly after I started nine years ago.

[gwnn]

Qx Qx xxxxx xxxx would be worth -2 points so if my partner has 25 and wants to play game, I would need to pass a forcing bid or otherwise stop him before we get too high.

[chasetb]

bridgepali, on 2016-April-07, 14:47, said:

Based on writings and brochures pure numerical point counting evolved during the 1940's. For it was during that decade it was determined that under no-trump play a minimum of 20 pts. would usually take seven tricks, 23 pts. eight tricks, 26 pts. nine tricks and so on every three point increment up to twelve/thirteen tricks. It was also determined at that time that under trump play the 3 pt. scale would usually take one more trick than under no-trump play. Interestingly, 3pts is the average point value Milton Work placed on the ace, king and queen.

Out of this came the Combined Hand Equivalent Chart, a pure numeric point counting method equating points to tricks. Why more players today are not using it I find hard to comprehend. For the method takes the guess work out of bidding.

It is common knowledge that card formations affect point count, yet are not considered apart of it. It would seem the card info incorporated with a bid would be useful if it's affect were known. Example: Under the 5 card Modern American Bidding System, when an opener opens with one of a major the strain is to have five cards. Knowing that and knowing whenever an opener's partner has four cards of the opening strain an additional trick can be taken, opener's partner can increase the response support bid by 3 pts.

To date with the use of a computer software program I have documented thirteen card formations under trump play that affect point counting and eight under no-trump play. The majority having a one trick plus/minus affect.

It is not my intent to convert players from their point counting method. Rather to inform, especially beginners, of a simpler more accurate method. For if I hadn't found this method for counting points, I would have giving bridge up shortly after I started nine years ago.

Actually, it was the 1930s when most of that stuff was going on; it was the 1940s when Milton Work points and the 4-3-2-1 system became popular through Goren and Culbertson. HCP was 'far simpler' than the Four Aces point count or Honor Tricks, when computer sims have proven the 3-2-1-0.5 was far better (most experts use a 4.5 - 3 - 1.5 - 0.5, which is close but not exact). For what it's worth, the Four Aces suggested to give 0 points to a singleton Jack, and only half the high card value for a singleton Queen or King.

[bridgepali]

gwnn, on 2016-April-08, 00:25, said:

Qx Qx xxxxx xxxx would be worth -2 points so if my partner has 25 and wants to play game, I would need to pass a forcing bid or otherwise stop him before we get too high.

The combined hands have 23 pts. indicating a safe 2NT or 3 level trump bid can be made. This does not mean a higher level bid couldn't be made. A card formation in the 25 pt. hand may provide additional pts.

For point count to match-up to The Combined Hand Equivalent Chart three point scale, a void needs to be valued at 5 pts., a singleton at 3 pts. and a doubleton at one point in both hands.

[bridgepali]

gwnn, on 2016-April-08, 00:25, said:

Qx Qx xxxxx xxxx would be worth -2 points so if my partner has 25 and wants to play game, I would need to pass a forcing bid or otherwise stop him before we get too high.

The combined hands have 23 pts. indicating a safe 2NT or 3 level trump bid can be made. This does not mean a higher level bid couldn't be made. A card formation in the 25 pt. hand may provide additional pts.

For point count to match-up to The Combined Hand Equivalent Chart three point scale, a void needs to be valued at 5 pts., a singleton at 3 pts. and a doubleton at one point in both hands.

[gwnn]

so it does not bother you that Qx Qx xxxxx xxxx is a weaker hand than xx xx xxxxx xxxx in your hand evaluation method? Do you at least concede that it is a weak point of your method that it counts points backwards?

[bridgepali]

gwnn, on 2016-April-08, 15:01, said:

so it does not bother you that Qx Qx xxxxx xxxx is a weaker hand than xx xx xxxxx xxxx in your hand evaluation method? Do you at least concede that it is a weak point of your method that it counts points backwards?

I don't grasp what you're getting at?

[1eyedjack]

bridgepali, on 2016-April-09, 14:45, said:

I don't grasp what you're getting at?

What's to grasp? The more high cards you hold, the fewer tricks you expect to take, right?