[Cyberyeti]

The auction goes:

1♦-P-P-

4th seat reaches into his bidding box, clearly touches the pass card but does not move it, then says "Oh I didn't see the 1♦" and pulls out 1♥.

Clearly there is UI he doesn't have an opening bid (and do we guess from the comment that the UI is that he doesn't have a 3rd or 4th seat opening bid ?)

Do you think from the UI there is any steer as the overcaller's partner if you have a 12 count with ♥QJx, ♦J10987 between a heart raise and 1N ?

Offending side claimed that they couldn't have an opening bid for the overcall as in protective seat they have to X then bid with a 12 count so they were never bidding game. This was not on their card, do you believe them ?

[WellSpyder]

1) Yes, there is UI that the 1♥ bidder does not have an opening bid. In principle this is true of either a 3rd or 4th in hand opening bid, but I don't think we really know which so I'm not convinced this particular aspect of the UI makes much difference.

2) It is not clear to me that the UI suggests anything very obvious between the choices available to his partner other than keeping the bidding lower on hands that would only be worth game opposite an opening bid. Showing us the whole hand opposite might help us decide whether any LA is suggested over another.

3) It is quite possible that OS have the agreement claimed about doubling with 12+ points in the protective seat. Obviously it would help if this was on their SC, but it hardly ever is.... Arguably there is MI in not making this information available unless requested - certainly I think it should be spelt out on the SC if they have any such agreement about direct overcalls (which a few people do seem to play), but in 4th seat it is normal to play the upper limit for an overcall as somewhat lower than in 2nd seat even though the actual limit will vary (and may not be an explicit agreement at all).

[Cyberyeti]

♠ KJ6
♥ QJ4
♦ J10987
♣ A8

is the hand in question, vul is love all

Not having a 1♥ bid in third seat will put the maximum for partner much lower than not having an opening heart in 4th, particularly if not too many spades held which is why that's relevant. What's more relevant is that he's also denying a 2♥ opener (not sure what that would mean for opps), and whether that's in 3rd or 4th makes an even bigger difference.

[ahydra]

After a 1H bid in protective seat the partner's hand is at most an invite. 1NT is a weird choice but it would be quite normal to stop short of game without UI and this supposed X = 12+ agreement.

edit: just seen the full hand, FWIW I would bid 2D (good heart raise) and respect a sign-off in 2H but raise 3H to 4.

ahydra

[WellSpyder]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-15, 09:24, said:

Not having a 1♥ bid in third seat will put the maximum for partner much lower than not having an opening heart in 4th, particularly if not too many spades held which is why that's relevant.

Exactly. That's why I commented on the fact that I don't think we can tell whether the UI is indicating that he doesn't have a 3rd seat opening or that he doesn't have a 4th seat opening.