[Kungsgeten]

Over our unbalanced 1D (11--16 with 4D and 5+C, or 11--19 unbal with 5+D or 11--19 4441 with 4D), we currently play:

1D---
1H = Natural or GF relay
1S = Natural, F1
1NT = Transfer to clubs, weak or GF
2C = Diamond raise, weak or GF
2D = Constructive raise, about 8--11
2M = Weak
2NT = Nat INV
3C = Nat INV
3D = Preempt
3M = Splinter, 14+

The idea is that responder should have a choice to use natural methods or relay methods when game forcing. This works okay, but over 1D--1H; we use the 1S rebid to show clubs, which can make it hard to find a spade fit if opener has 4-1-4-4 or 4-0-(45). With three-suiters it is also problematic to find fits when responder has 5S and 4H. Also responder often take preference to 2m on a 4-3 or 5-2 fit instead of finding a 5-2 or 4-3 fit in responder's major. We can not play 1NT after a 1D opening currently.

The three-suited misfits may not be much of a problem, but still here's an alternate structure we're considering:

1D---
1H = Same, but GF hands with 5+ minor has to relay.
1S = Same
1NT = Either a transfer to clubs (weak 6+ clubs or 3-3-2-5), or a diamond limit raise. 2m is non-forcing, 2H artificial force.
2C = Either a simple diamond raise, or Reverse Flannery hand (weak/INV). 2H artificial force.
2D = Flannery hand (5+H, 4S), less than INV, non-forcing.
2M = Weak
2NT = Same
3C = Same
3D = Mixed raise
3M = Same

[nullve]

Kungsgeten, on 2016-February-05, 10:15, said:

2NT = Nat INV

I've built my entire system around avoiding invitational 2N bids, so naturally I'm not a fan of this. But maybe you can incorporate balanced invitational hands without a major into the 1N response instead?

[Kungsgeten]

nullve, on 2016-February-05, 11:11, said:

maybe you can incorporate balanced invitational hands without a major into the 1N response instead?

Sure, having these hands in 1NT or 2C would be possible. Then 2NT could be GF diamond raise I guess.

[kenrexford]

I love reading discussions of unbalanced 1D openings. I came up with the idea myself back in the late 80's. As recently as about 2002, that was thought to be crazy. In the Montreal World Open Pairs, my partner and I got more questions about it than anything else. Today, it seems more and more mainstream. Just tickles me.

I rain old school, though, boring in that I do nothing unusual beyond that, other than inference.

[Zelandakh]

You probably already know my structure but just in case here it is:

1♦
==
1♥ = INV+ relay
... - 1♠ = min, <4 spades unless 4=4=4=1 or 4=4=5=0
... - ... - 1NT = GF relay (responses as for an Opener with extras)
... - ... - others = nat, INV hand
... - 1NT = 4+ spades
... - ... - 2♣ = GF relay
... - ... - ... - 2♦ = min, 4 spades
... - ... - ... - 2♥ = 5 spades
... - ... - ... - 2♠ = extras, 4 spades, 6+ diamonds
... - ... - ... - 2NT = extras, 4 spades, 5 diamonds, not 5440
... - ... - ... - 3♣ = extras, 4=1=4=4
... - ... - ... - 3♦+ = extras, 4=0=5=4
... - ... - others = nat, INV
... - 2♣ = 4+ clubs, <4 spades, GF
... - ... - 2♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - 2♥ = 5+ diamonds, 4 clubs, not 5440
... - ... - ... - 2♠ = 5+ diamonds, 5+ clubs
... - ... - ... - 2NT = 4 diamonds, 5 clubs, not 5440
... - ... - ... - 3♣ = 1=4=4=4
... - ... - ... - 3♦+ = 0=4=5=4
... - 2♦ = 6+ diamonds, 1-suited, GF
... - 2♥ = 4 hearts, 5+ diamonds, not 5440, GF
... - 2♠ = 4=4=4=1, GF
... - 2NT+ = 4=4=5=0, GF
1♠ = weak, 4+ spades (now 1NT shows hearts without extras and 2NT is a good 3 card spade raise)
1NT = weak, 4+ hearts
2♣ = weak, 5+ clubs
2♦ = weak, 3+ diamonds
2M = 6+ suit, ~3-7ish

Some notes:
If you allow 5 hearts, that would need to be added (eg 1♦ - 1♥; 2♠ and move the 3-suiters up a step)
If you do not allow 5 spades, the 4 spade hands with extras can move down a step (asymettric between min/extra hands) or the 3-suiters could move into 2♥ instead.
If you allow (40)4=5 hands, these also need to be incorporated.
The 2NT and 3♦ responses are available for whichever types of raise you prefer (up to 3). If you need a further immediate raise type, use 3♣.
Weak hands are usually bid up-the-line except for true 2-suiters, thus 5♥4♠ responds 1♠ rather than 1NT. If you hate this then using 2♥ for Flannery is an option.
Because of the weak jumps, Responder bidding 1♠ followed by 2♠ or 1NT followed by 2♥ shows constructive values.
4=4=4=1 (Opener) opposite a weak 3=3=2=5 (Responder) is awkward - you just have to live with this.
1♥ followed by 2♦ covers limit raises nicely in most cases so inverted minors are not really worth considering.
For 3rd/4th seat openings, the same structure can be used except that the GF relay on Responder's rebid disappears and becomes natural instead.

Anyway, even if you do not like it, it is at the very least a system you can use as a comparison to your 2 structures and that in itself might push you towards one or the other.

[Kungsgeten]

Your structure seems nice Zel, though having a mandatory relay isn't really in line with our system philosophy (we try to use two way communication bidding for the most part, but have relays in some situations where you'd rather ask than tell).

I've changed some minor things:

1NT shows clubs, and the diamond limit raise has been removed. 1NT usually have 6+ clubs, unlimited (perhaps 4+ hcp) but may have 3-3-2-5 and less than inv values.

2C is a simple diamond raise, or an invitational hand with 6 card major.

2M is reverse flannery.

3C is a limit raise.

[nullve]

While I can see the point of using RFR over a Precision 1♦ opening, I don't think it's necessary over a natural, unbalanced 1♦ opening, where one can play

1♦-?:

1♥ = 4+ H, including all RFR-type hands / ?
1♠ = 4+ S, excluding all RFR-type hands,

and make use of the fact that in the standard scheme of rebids over 1♦-1♥, the 1♠ and 1N rebids are much underused while the 2♣ and 2♦ rebids are rather overused. There are of course myriad ways of doing that, but one "natural" way (not involving e.g. transfers or Gazzilli) is to use a "prepared" 1♠ rebid (a la Nightmare), showing 4+ S or 11-15 with 31(54), to make the 2♣ rebid more manageable*. Of course, RFR-type hands may still be tricky to bid after 1♦-1♥; 2♦. But because your 1♦ opening is always unbalanced, the 1N rebid is now virtually freed up and can therefore be used to offload, or even replace, the 2♦ rebid on minimum hands with 6+ D.

* E.g. have a look at http://www.bridgebas...mond-structure/, where straube does something similar in a nebulous diamond context.

[phoenix214]

How about:
1M - normal:
1N - GF C or Bal
2C - C NF
2D - Normal raise
2M - whatever you like your 2M to be
2N - Inv+dia raise(implies that diamonds are trump)
3C - Nat inv
3D - Pre
Higher Spl, games to play.

[Kungsgeten]

nullve: I personally do not think reverse flannery is necessary in our system. Opener will always have a rebid etc. Partner, however, is more concerned. When opener has 4441 or 5440 with shortness in responder's first bid major, opener will show clubs as the second suit, and thus we lose the 4-4 fit in the other major. Reverse Flannery (and "normal" Flannery) solves this to some extent. Responder having 4-4 majors will still face the same problem though. Bidding hearts before spades with 4-5 majors may be a solution, but will not fit our relay method as well. We currently play the following rebids after 1D--1M:

1D--1H (heavily inspired by Ben Lessard's Chapi 8 system):
1S = 4+ clubs, min if 5-5
1NT = 6+ diamonds or 4 hearts with extras (short clubs if three-suited)
2C = 5+D, 4 spades, extras
2D = 5+D, 4 spades, min
2H = 4H, min. Short clubs if three-suited.
2S = 5-5 minors, extras
2NT = 4441 or 5440, short spades, extras

Responder is able to take preference, invite game, relay or force with hearts. We find out about min/extras and have full shape relays.

1D--1S;
1NT = Gazzilli. 6+ diamonds or extras (16--19)
2C = Natural, may be three-suited, may be 5-4 either way.
2D = 5+D, 4H.
2H = 3 spades, 11--15
2S = 4 spades, min
2NT = 4 spades, 16--19
3C = 5-5, 13--15
3D = Good suit, 13--15
3S = Good raise, 4 spades and about 14--15

[straube]

I think 1D-1S is much more cramped than 1D-1H and I've liked our decision to offload weak spades and weak Rev Flannery with 1D-2S and 1D-2H respectively.

I wasn't seeing how what we do could help you until I read nullve's post and your last post detailing your structure, but as you rebid 1N with 6D or bigger (we open 2D or 1C respectively) you're actually I think in a similar position.

How about...

1D-2H weak rev Flannery
1D-2S weak spades

1D-1S
.....1N-6D or bigger
.....2C-3-suited short spade
..........2D-correction
..........2H-GF relay
..........2S-GI spades
..........etc-GI
.....2D-5D/5C (when partner is weak, you will always have at least a 5-2 diamond fit or 5-3 club fit here)
..........2H-GI+ relay
...............2S-weaker
..........2S-GI spades
..........2N-GI
..........3C-to play
.....2H-good raise
.....2S-bad raise

You're responding hearts naturally? I think your 1S rebid should be spades. Aren't you losing out when you have 4351 and you rebid 2D? I don't see an obvious relay bid. 2H would seem to be needed for natural. You can't invite in hearts or anything. Also seems like you lose heart fits with 1-3-(54)

1D-1H

1S-natural
.....XYZ
1N-6D or bigger?
2C-minors
.....2S-GF relay
2D-heart raise (1-3-(54) here if you like but you could probably do better dividing these min/max)
2H-heart raise

I'm a lot more uncertain about your 1D-1H auctions because I'm proposing you use your 1N rebid a little differently and not sure how you unwind that. I guess your 1N, 2S and higher rebids would be handling strong minor hands, all 6D hands, and strong heart-fitting hands. You could arrange these all sorts of ways.

[nullve]

Suggestion with with your 11-19 range interpreted as rules of 20-28:

1♦-1♠ = 4+ S, excluding RFR hands

1♦-1♠; ?:

(Using

MIN := rules of 20-22
MED := rules of 23-25
MAX := rules of 26-28)

1N = MIN, 2- S / MED, 04(54), 13(54), 1444 or 1453 [one idea: MED hands are not too unbal. if Responder chooses to pass]
...P = 5-S3-D, < inv
...2♣ = pref. opposite MIN, 4+D4+C, GF opposite MED
......P = MIN, 4+ C
......2♦ = MIN, 6+D3-C
......2♥ = MIN, 1453
......2♠+ = MED, nat.
...2♦ = pref. opposite MIN, 4+D4+C, GF opposite MED
......P = MIN
......2♥/2N+ = MED, nat.
......2♠ = MED, 4+ C
...2♥ = inv, 6+ S / any GF
......2♠ = MIN
......2N+ = MED, nat.
...2♠ = 6+ S, weak
...(...)
2♣ = Gazzilli: 3 S / MAX, any
...2♦ = 7+, relay (GF opposite MAX)
......2♥ = MED, 3 S
......2♠ = MIN, 3 S
......2N+ = MAX (nat.? relay structure?)
...2♥ = 4-6, 5- S [Alternatively, if 4-6, 6+ S is not possible: 4-6, 5-S3H (allows Opener to pass w/ MAX, 2-S4H)]
......2♠ = 3 S [27 Feb 2017: How to reach game with MAX, 3 S opposite 4-6, 5 S?]
......2N = MAX, 2-S5D4-C
......3♣ = MAX, 2-S4-H5+ C
......3♦ = MAX, 2-S4-H6+D3-C
......3♥ = MAX, 5H6+D
......3♠ = MAX, 4 S
......(...)
...2♠ = 4-6, 6+ S [Alternatively, if 4-6, 6+ S is not possible: 4-6, 5-S2-H]
...(...)
2♦ = MED, 2-S6+D4-C
2♥ = MED, 4+ S [Alternatively: MED, either 4+ S or 5+D5+C]
2♠ = MIN, 4+ S
2N = MED, 5+D5+C [Alternatively: freed up]
3♣+ = freed up

There's probably a hole somewhere [27 Feb 2017: I've found one - see above.], as I came up with this today.

This post has been edited by nullve: 2017-February-27, 05:24