[Liversidge]

---

I can't bid 3 Diamonds or 2NT which show 10-12 points, and I don't have a second 4 card suit. Looking at my honour strength then presumably partner is very likely to have spade honours.

We play Acol - 4 card majors.

[1eyedjack]

Yes within the confines of your system 3N shows this sort of strength, a balanced hand with primary diamond support and no alternative. It does take out a lot of space. Not always a bad thing. I take it you missed slam?

[Liversidge]

1eyedjack, on 2016-January-16, 10:40, said:

Yes within the confines of your system 3N shows this sort of strength, a balanced hand with primary diamond support and no alternative. It does take out a lot of space. Not always a bad thing. I take it you missed slam?

Thanks.
I am too embarrassed to say how the bidding went. Suffice to say I didn't bid 3NT because I felt sure there must be some way of exploring at a lower level and messed up!

[fromageGB]

There is a way to explore at a lower level, but it is obviously not "natural" and needs partnership agreement! Many play 2♣ as not necessarily natural, or 2♦ as potentially strong and therefore forcing to some point or other, but without an agreement, I can't think of any reply other than 3NT. 1♥ for example will always end in heart game if opener has four, regardless of what you do (legally) next.

[Liversidge]

fromageGB, on 2016-January-16, 11:29, said:

There is a way to explore at a lower level, but it is obviously not "natural" and needs partnership agreement! Many play 2♣ as not necessarily natural, or 2♦ as potentially strong and therefore forcing to some point or other, but without an agreement, I can't think of any reply other than 3NT. 1♥ for example will always end in heart game if opener has four, regardless of what you do (legally) next.

OK, I will own up. I did bid 1♥ and we did end up in 4♥ and went 1 off. At the time I just didn't feel it was right to leap to 3NT with no spade cover. I will be prepared next time.

[ahydra]

You may want to consider "inverted minors" - 2D is an unlimited raise, 10+ HCPs, with 3D a pre-emptive raise. It solves this problem nicely. Alternatively if you already play a Jacoby-style 2NT bid over the majors, you can extend that to minors as well.

ahydra

[Liversidge]

ahydra, on 2016-January-16, 12:22, said:

You may want to consider "inverted minors" - 2D is an unlimited raise, 10+ HCPs, with 3D a pre-emptive raise. It solves this problem nicely. Alternatively if you already play a Jacoby-style 2NT bid over the majors, you can extend that to minors as well.

ahydra

Thanks. I had just remembered an "inverted minors' reference in a book partner and I use (Understanding the Uncontested Auction' - Klinger and Kambites'). It gives an example hand almost identical to this one, and it works well. Something for us to consider down the line. Meanwhile I will risk 3NT.

[Zelandakh]

It is a well-known issue with approach-forcing methods and one of the main reasons that conventions such as inverted minors and criss-cross were invented.

[Cyberyeti]

I fell foul of something like this yesterday with an opp bidding an unalerted 2♣ in a fairly new partnership, when his partner raised clubs and he went back to diamonds I thought they had a bigger club fit than they actually did and got my total tricks calculation horribly wrong.

2♣ is I suspect the old fashioned Acol way of handling this, but a lot of people now use inverted minors.

[overruff42]

This is the hand for criss-cross, where 2D is a game forcing raise. Stoppers are bid up the line, and it is easy to determine whether to stop in 3NT or try for a diamond slam

[kronolith]

Consider 2NT as game-forcing with diamond support. Commonly played over majors (Jacoby, Stenberg) so why not over minors too?

[zillahandp]

2c every time
Keeps all options open and if p raises clubs I can cope

[apollo1201]

It is usually better, when you "fake" a suit, to cheat on a minor than on a major, because partner would usually still try for 3NT if you bid a minor, while stopping in 3NT after a major fit is found is more difficult.

That said, it is also likely that partner is better placed to play NT contract (because of your ultra-weak ♠holding), so you should try to right-side by not stealing NT that early. Over 3NT, partner with a non-descript 1453 minimum is not expected to move and you'll go down with e.g. 5 or 6♦ laydown (x AQxx Axxxx Kxx or A AQxx Qxxxx xxx).

The hand you provided, absent any agreements like the inverted minors lots mentionned (but that I do not consider to be a B/I convention), asks for a 2♣ bid, waiting to see developments (like bid 3NT over 2NT from partner, 3♦ if forcing over 2♦ otherwise 2♥ which would not guarantee a 4-cd suit in that sequence). You can convert back to ♦ if partner bombards you with any high number of ♣, and if that is the case, you probably didn't belong in 3NT.

[steve2005]

A simple correction is to play jump in the other minor as GF. 1♣-2♦ or 1♦-3♣.
This is similar to criss-cross without adding complexity of inverted minors.
SAYC has problem as Acol with this type of hand - no forcing raise.