[Shugart23]

We currently use 2D bid to show 5-4-4-0 and 4-4-4-1 hands, any shortness and 11-15 HCP......Thinking about throwing in 5-4-3-1, 5-4-1-3, 4-5-1-3 and 4-5-3-1 hands into the mix where we have 9 cards in the Majors...

Is this a lame idea ?

[Kungsgeten]

I've read about someone using 2♦ or 2♥ as Precision Mini-roman (short diamonds) combined with Flannery (5+♥ and 4♠). I would personally feel better, in your case, if the 2♦ opening could not have a short major. Try it out and report!

[Shugart23]

 Kungsgeten, on 2015-November-14, 07:39, said:

I've read about someone using 2♦ or 2♥ as Precision Mini-roman (short diamonds) combined with Flannery (5+♥ and 4♠). I would personally feel better, in your case, if the 2♦ opening could not have a short major. Try it out and report!

I might try it, but I need to decide on the continuations, assuming ACBL GC legal...Seems like Responder bids 2H to ask Opener to describe hand more fully, thereby giving up bailing out at 2H....

Since 95% of my games are Match points, I kind of like the preemptive value the 2D bid has and don't want to restrict it to must have both Majors...

2H is preemptive for us

[PrecisionL]

Various Precision Books added 5431 hands to the Precision 2D opener and it worked well because the singleton or void was always a ♦.

For mini-Roman, 2NT should probably be the G.F. hand asking for the singleton. After showing a minor suit singleton, play 3M as asking for 4-card support. Good luck.

Edited: Nov. 15, 9 am EST

Personally I don't play either of these conventions. I prefer 2♦ as natural, 10-14 hcp and 6♦ or 5♦ & 4♣

[straube]

I think it's a bad idea. You will still need to be able to show 5422 and 4522 and by opening 1M you'll be able to emphasize the longer major vs forcing a guess as this would do.

Most folks think mini-Roman is pretty bad to begin with; the old joke for how to defend this opening is to let the auction proceed unmolested and then double the final part score. Unnecessary, too, as often you can open 1m and raise hearts or rebid spades. It's only when it goes 1D-1S where you potentially have to choose between a 1N rebid and 2C. Even in that instance it can go 1D-1S, ?-2S and you can find a 6-1 spade fit vs 2D-2S, 2N where you might undertrick quite a lot.

If you still want to trial your idea, then I think it has to go 2D-2N to ask shortness and you can at best show 8 things by responder. So you could approximate 8 of your 20 hand patterns or you could show 4 different shortnesses along with minimum/maximum information.

If you were able to use mini-Roman for your 2C opening, you could sacrifice your 2D response for an asking bid and handle a lot more. I still don't like it.

I like 2m as natural. Precision 2D is too narrow a use and mini-Roman too wide a use. Good luck

[Shugart23]

 straube, on 2015-November-14, 08:47, said:

I think it's a bad idea. You will still need to be able to show 5422 and 4522 and by opening 1M you'll be able to emphasize the longer major vs forcing a guess as this would do.

Most folks think mini-Roman is pretty bad to begin with; the old joke for how to defend this opening is to let the auction proceed unmolested and then double the final part score. Unnecessary, too, as often you can open 1m and raise hearts or rebid spades. It's only when it goes 1D-1S where you potentially have to choose between a 1N rebid and 2C. Even in that instance it can go 1D-1S, ?-2S and you can find a 6-1 spade fit vs 2D-2S, 2N where you might undertrick quite a lot.

If you still want to trial your idea, then I think it has to go 2D-2N to ask shortness and you can at best show 8 things by responder. So you could approximate 8 of your 20 hand patterns or you could show 4 different shortnesses along with minimum/maximum information.

If you were able to use mini-Roman for your 2C opening, you could sacrifice your 2D response for an asking bid and handle a lot more. I still don't like it.

I like 2m as natural. Precision 2D is too narrow a use and mini-Roman too wide a use. Good luck

[Shugart23]

 straube, on 2015-November-14, 08:47, said:

I think it's a bad idea. You will still need to be able to show 5422 and 4522 and by opening 1M you'll be able to emphasize the longer major vs forcing a guess as this would do.

Most folks think mini-Roman is pretty bad to begin with; the old joke for how to defend this opening is to let the auction proceed unmolested and then double the final part score. Unnecessary, too, as often you can open 1m and raise hearts or rebid spades. It's only when it goes 1D-1S where you potentially have to choose between a 1N rebid and 2C. Even in that instance it can go 1D-1S, ?-2S and you can find a 6-1 spade fit vs 2D-2S, 2N where you might undertrick quite a lot.

If you still want to trial your idea, then I think it has to go 2D-2N to ask shortness and you can at best show 8 things by responder. So you could approximate 8 of your 20 hand patterns or you could show 4 different shortnesses along with minimum/maximum information.

If you were able to use mini-Roman for your 2C opening, you could sacrifice your 2D response for an asking bid and handle a lot more. I still don't like it.

I like 2m as natural. Precision 2D is too narrow a use and mini-Roman too wide a use. Good luck

Yeah, I know 2D isn't great at mini-Romam, and the alternatives aren't great either and standard precision 2C is getting boring...Thinking of throwing everything out and going to a Canope style bidding...still keeping 1C as Precision which might take care of everything....Of course, I'd have to unlearn a lot that I have already in my memory

[Shugart23]

 Shugart23, on 2015-November-14, 08:57, said:

Yeah, I know 2D isn't great at mini-Romam, and the alternatives aren't great either and standard precision 2C is getting boring...Thinking of throwing everything out and going to a Canope style bidding...still keeping 1C as Precision which might take care of everything....Of course, I'd have to unlearn a lot that I have already in my memory

btw, I think the continuations would go something like 2H...tell me what type of hand you have and Opener responds 2S or 2NT to show the 5-4 Major hands and alternatively (submarine) bids his shortness with the true 3 suited hand...If Responder wants to try and bail out, he bids anything other than 2H and hopefully they find the best fit

[awm]

Of course I am a fan of natural 2♦ here...

However, another interesting method I've seen is 2♦ showing a minimum opener with 4♠ and 4+♥. This greatly increases the frequency over precision 2♦ and solves the "Flannery problem" with responses to 1♥ as well. Since you know two of opener's suits, you are much better placed in a lot of auctions than over mini-roman. You will occasionally get in trouble when responder has no three-card or longer major and a weak hand, but this seems quite a bit less frequent than the problem hands for mini-roman.

[all loomis]

 Shugart23, on 2015-November-14, 07:01, said:

We currently use 2D bid to show 5-4-4-0 and 4-4-4-1 hands, any shortness and 11-15 HCP......Thinking about throwing in 5-4-3-1, 5-4-1-3, 4-5-1-3 and 4-5-3-1 hands into the mix where we have 9 cards in the Majors...

Is this a lame idea ?

can't be lame, i came up with it in '67. i used roman two bids with some success for 15 years and i urge you to stick with 4441 exclusively. 5431 should bid the long suit.

[nullve]

 Shugart23, on 2015-November-14, 07:01, said:

We currently use 2D bid to show 5-4-4-0 and 4-4-4-1 hands, any shortness and 11-15 HCP......Thinking about throwing in 5-4-3-1, 5-4-1-3, 4-5-1-3 and 4-5-3-1 hands into the mix where we have 9 cards in the Majors...

Looks a lot like an intermediate strength version of "unfettered" Jammer 2♦ (http://www.bridgebuff.com/jammer.html).

[Shugart23]

 nullve, on 2015-November-14, 17:16, said:

Looks a lot like an intermediate strength version of "unfettered" Jammer 2♦ (http://www.bridgebuff.com/jammer.html).

Interesting link......Jammer not GCC legal ?

TWO DIAMOND ARTIFICIAL OPENING BID indicating one of:
a) a strong hand.
b) a three-suiter with a minimum of 10 HCP

[kenrexford]

 straube, on 2015-November-14, 08:47, said:

I think it's a bad idea. You will still need to be able to show 5422 and 4522 and by opening 1M you'll be able to emphasize the longer major vs forcing a guess as this would do.

Most folks think mini-Roman is pretty bad to begin with; the old joke for how to defend this opening is to let the auction proceed unmolested and then double the final part score. Unnecessary, too, as often you can open 1m and raise hearts or rebid spades. It's only when it goes 1D-1S where you potentially have to choose between a 1N rebid and 2C. Even in that instance it can go 1D-1S, ?-2S and you can find a 6-1 spade fit vs 2D-2S, 2N where you might undertrick quite a lot.

If you still want to trial your idea, then I think it has to go 2D-2N to ask shortness and you can at best show 8 things by responder. So you could approximate 8 of your 20 hand patterns or you could show 4 different shortnesses along with minimum/maximum information.

If you were able to use mini-Roman for your 2C opening, you could sacrifice your 2D response for an asking bid and handle a lot more. I still don't like it.

I like 2m as natural. Precision 2D is too narrow a use and mini-Roman too wide a use. Good luck

Switching to 2C as the 3 suiter is actually quite effective. 2D as the asking bid keeps the contract down and allows a strength ask. My methods, after 2C-2D, are that Opener with a maximum submarines the stiff, starting with 2NT for clubs, which even on the max hands keeps you with 3H as the highest option. 2NT as the ask is tough when you have a heart fit but the club short is not good. With minimums, Opener bids 2S with short hearts or 2H with hearts. 3D reasks after 2H. This works very well in practice.

This allows an alternatice core if coupled with 2D opening as minors. Now, 1D is, if minor oriented, clubs or diamonds but never both, which is easy to unwind.

[mgoetze]

 Shugart23, on 2015-November-14, 08:57, said:

Yeah, I know 2D isn't great at mini-Romam, and the alternatives aren't great either

The ACBL doesn't want you to play an effective 2♦ opening (they don't even allow Wilkosz on the "superchart" AFAIK). Seems like they're achieving their goal comfortably!

[Kungsgeten]

 kenrexford, on 2015-November-15, 08:24, said:

Switching to 2C as the 3 suiter is actually quite effective. 2D as the asking bid keeps the contract down and allows a strength ask. My methods, after 2C-2D, are that Opener with a maximum submarines the stiff, starting with 2NT for clubs, which even on the max hands keeps you with 3H as the highest option. 2NT as the ask is tough when you have a heart fit but the club short is not good. With minimums, Opener bids 2S with short hearts or 2H with hearts. 3D reasks after 2H. This works very well in practice.

This allows an alternatice core if coupled with 2D opening as minors. Now, 1D is, if minor oriented, clubs or diamonds but never both, which is easy to unwind.

Last time I played nebulous diamond 1D showed a balanced hand or 4M and (4)5+m. This had the benefit of 1D-1M; 2m showing hearts and the minor. In this version 1D-1M; 2m would show (if not playing canapé) 6+ cards in the minor or, after 1D-1S, possibly 5 cards in the minor and 4 hearts. If using this method it seems like Reverse Flannery would be of good use.

The downside of 1D as bal/4M and (4)5+m is that 2m shows only five (6+m or both minors). Since 5-5 minors would not want to open 2m, 2NT is often used to show both minors in this structure. awm plays that 2m shows a 6+ suit always, which may hold a major. The downside of this is that 5-4/5-5 minors open 1D, so both suits can not always be shown after 1D-1M (the whole 1D opening in awm's case is defined as balanced, 5-5 minors, or three-suited). A third solution, used by a Swedish pair during the Bermuda Bowl this year is to use 1NT as both minors (5-4 or better). Now 2m is single-suited and 1D shows 12--15 NT or 4M and (4)5+m.

[awm]

 Kungsgeten, on 2015-November-15, 16:35, said:

The downside of this is that 5-4/5-5 minors open 1D, so both suits can not always be shown after 1D-1M (the whole 1D opening in awm's case is defined as balanced, 5-5 minors, or three-suited).

Since single-suited minor hands open 2m, the auction 1♦-1M-2♣ shows both minors in my methods. So there's not really a case where we can't show both minors. There are a few exceptional hands (i.e. 1435 with 14-15 must rebid 2♣ after 1♦-1♠) but responder can still assume both minors and opener clarifies the rare cases at third turn.

[straube]

 Kungsgeten, on 2015-November-15, 16:35, said:

Last time I played nebulous diamond 1D showed a balanced hand or 4M and (4)5+m. This had the benefit of 1D-1M; 2m showing hearts and the minor. In this version 1D-1M; 2m would show (if not playing canapé) 6+ cards in the minor or, after 1D-1S, possibly 5 cards in the minor and 4 hearts. If using this method it seems like Reverse Flannery would be of good use.

I don't think this would be a playable method. 1D-1S, 2D (for example) and you're stitched with 5-3-1-4 because you don't even know whether partner is 4H/5D or 6D.

I'm guessing the way he makes this work is 1D-1S,

1N-could be 14(53)
2m-6m or possibly 04(5m4)

or much better he includes the 04(5m4m) in his 2C opening.

[straube]

 awm, on 2015-November-14, 09:53, said:

However, another interesting method I've seen is 2♦ showing a minimum opener with 4♠ and 4+♥. This greatly increases the frequency over precision 2♦ and solves the "Flannery problem" with responses to 1♥ as well. Since you know two of opener's suits, you are much better placed in a lot of auctions than over mini-roman. You will occasionally get in trouble when responder has no three-card or longer major and a weak hand, but this seems quite a bit less frequent than the problem hands for mini-roman.

What do these folks open with 3415 and 4315?

[johnu]

 Shugart23, on 2015-November-14, 07:01, said:

We currently use 2D bid to show 5-4-4-0 and 4-4-4-1 hands, any shortness and 11-15 HCP......Thinking about throwing in 5-4-3-1, 5-4-1-3, 4-5-1-3 and 4-5-3-1 hands into the mix where we have 9 cards in the Majors...

Is this a lame idea ?

I play a 3 suited 2♦ so I'm aware of all the potential problem hands you can run into. I'm not saying that having a 5 card major is unplayable, but I don't see how you can avoid lousy results that you wouldn't have if you opened your 5 card major.

[SteelWheel]

 Shugart23, on 2015-November-14, 07:01, said:

We currently use 2D bid to show 5-4-4-0 and 4-4-4-1 hands, any shortness and 11-15 HCP......Thinking about throwing in 5-4-3-1, 5-4-1-3, 4-5-1-3 and 4-5-3-1 hands into the mix where we have 9 cards in the Majors...

Is this a lame idea ?

You don't provide any information about the rest of your system, so can't evaluate fully...

In general, my take on 2♦ opening bids is that they should be played specifically to cover a "hole" in your bidding system, not just employed willy-nilly on an ever-increasing number of hand types.

The Precision 2♦ open addresses a specific issue (how to open an intermediate three-suiter with short diamonds). I've seen Precision pairs expand this to include all 4441 or 5440 patterns, and I wonder what hole they are trying to cover as all other three-suiters are pretty easily handled without need for a "gadget".

Even Flannery addresses a specific issue--and "classic" Roman (strong variant only) addresses the problem of opening 2♣ and then being stuck for an intelligent rebid that gets all the information in there after the self-preemption.

Playing 2♦ openings, and then constantly expanding the universe of hands they cover is sort of a "disease" in my opinion. I have one semi-regular pard who does this a lot, and I have to keep breaking him of the habit...