[mgoetze]

---

Who could/should have done more?

[mike777]

blame south

prefer to open 4h with that south hand.

[eagles123]

bit of both south has a massive hand but north also has a pretty decent hand given he passed over 1h (which I really dislike)

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2015-August-27, 15:40, said:

blame south

prefer to open 4h with that south hand.

Partner actually had the K♣, K♥ and A♠ so you played 4♥+3 on a spade lead, you are MUCH too good for 4♥ at this vul.

a) I respond 1♠ to 1♥
b) I rebid 3♥ as S
c) I do more than just bid 3♥ as N (we would play a good/bad 2N so I have 2 3♥ bids and could use the better one)

[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-August-27, 16:09, said:

Partner actually had the K♣, K♥ and A♠ so you played 4♥+3 on a spade lead, you are MUCH too good for 4♥ at this vul.

a) I respond 1♠ to 1♥
b) I rebid 3♥ as S
c) I do more than just bid 3♥ as N (we would play a good/bad 2N so I have 2 3♥ bids and could use the better one)

game before slam

You need to weigh the risk of missing game to missing a slam.
This example shows the risk of missing a good game is not zero with an 1h opening.

[BillPatch]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-August-27, 16:09, said:

Partner actually had the K♣, K♥ and A♠ so you played 4♥+3 on a spade lead, you are MUCH too good for 4♥ at this vul.

a) I respond 1♠ to 1♥
b) I rebid 3♥ as S
c) I do more than just bid 3♥ as N (we would play a good/bad 2N so I have 2 3♥ bids and could use the better one)

I highly agree with a and b--two partners were asleep on this hand.
I like the good/bad 2N, but would prefer to make many more simpler conventional agreements earlier if I had my choice in developing a serious partnership. It is not for the casual partnership IMHO.

[BillPatch]

Oh, I forgot to assess relative blame. 50-50. Both errors were equally atrocious. But if I had to make the decision which error was worse failure to respond to the opening bid with 6 HCP seems to be more a beginner error.

[mike777]

BillPatch, on 2015-August-27, 17:33, said:

Oh, I forgot to assess relative blame. 50-50. Both errors were equally atrocious. But if I had to make the decision which error was worse failure to respond to the opening bid with 6 HCP seems to be more a beginner error.

I think you raise a great question about responding to third seat 1h.


no one discussing this.

clearly you think pass is horrible...a mistake....pass not an option.

[rmnka447]

The lion's share of the blame has to be with South.

Frankly, I'd consider opening a strong 2 ♣ with the South hand. Probably for quite a few BBFers that might be a little aggressive. However, the hand is a 4 loser hand. With very disciplined bidding over 2 ♣, we tend to be more aggressive in opening them with the appropriate loser count.

The point is a 2 ♥ rebid with a passing partner is a terrible underbid. It could be made on as little as an 11 pointer with 6 ♥s. South's hand just has too much playing strength. Force me to open 1 ♥ and I'd probably just rebid 4 ♥ looking for 1 useful feature/card in partner's hand.

South doesn't get all the blame. At the absolute minimum, playing 2/1, North has at least a Forcing NT response and 2 ♥ rebid. Depending on methods played, some might also think the hand is good enough at least for a 1 ♠ response. Once North responds, it would seems pretty hard not to find your way to 4 ♥.

[Stephen Tu]

Is responding with the North hand really all that clear? In my mind it is not. I count 5 HCP not 6 as claimed above. 2 of those are dubious jacks. Change South's hand, I don't know that you are that happy if partner rebids 2nt/3h etc. Or raises 1s to 2s on 3 cds as I do rather frequently. I think there are a fairly large # of hands where passing is the last chance to go plus, when South's hand isn't quite so extreme, I think you guys are resulting.

If South had Kxx AQJxx Kx AJx and you went 2 off in 2nt instead of making 1H are you that happy?

[helene_t]

After South's double, North may be able to see that his ♣K is huge. But at that point, North already passed 2♥ and we needed E to rescue us. And I think S has the responsibility for this. Open 2♣ or rebid 3♥ depending on style.

If you respond to 1♥ with this North hand I think you might as well play Fantunes.

[alok c]

South.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 1H is ok, the hand is not good enought for 2C.
#2 2H is ok as well, ..., I dont mind 3H, but in the end this is a tactical
decision, but if you contemplated slightly 2C, than go for it

#3 I dont like the double by South, 3C is better, that being said unclear, if I
would have found it at the table,
but South does not want to defend 2S, he knowes about his 7th heart.
If you asked me, the X showes something like a powerful 6331 hand

#4 North has no idea, that his King is huge, he is certainly ma. for his
two times passes, but I would not raise

All in all 50/50 South - bad luck.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

In England the LOLs have no trouble reaching game after a strong 2♥ opening. In Germany the KÄDs also have no problem after a Benji 2♣ opening. So clearly system takes some of the blame. After a 1♥ opening it could quite reasonably have gone AP. Certainly North could have responded and for many pairs this would be systemic; presumably for this pair it was not. After 2♦ we need to know more about agreements - many club players use 3♥ here to show just such a hand as this with extras and if that were the case then the remaining blame is obvious. If 3♥ would just have shown extra length and not also strength then it is more difficult. One way of playing is to use a 3♦ cue to show this hand (one-suited maximum) but that obviously requires agreement. If nothing else is available, a double followed by a further try ought to get the message across.

I have sympathy at this point though - South seems to think North's pass means game is off the table while North thinks the pass just denies a basic general level of strength. Most likely the further bidding was undiscussed. So it seems to me that the most blame goes to system and lack of agreements. Of the rest I give the majority to South but obviously both could have done more.

[wank]

i have no problem with north's original pass.

south's 2 hearts was beyond conservative.

once east rescued them and south comes back to the party, i think north has a pretty good hand - he knows his clubs are working. he could try 3 diamonds. there are hands where south hasn't underbid and you still want to play 4h.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2015-August-28, 01:04, said:

After South's double, North may be able to see that his ♣K is huge. But at that point, North already passed 2♥ and we needed E to rescue us. And I think S has the responsibility for this. Open 2♣ or rebid 3♥ depending on style.

If you respond to 1♥ with this North hand I think you might as well play Fantunes.

Not really, you need to respond on these hands with the spade suit, partner doesn't need the whale he has to make game, AQ10x, AKxxx, x, QJ10 is enough for a decent shot and he can easily be better than that particularly if 2♣ is your only strong bid. Also at pairs you run the risk of playing a 5-2 heart fit instead of a 4-4 spade fit, 3♠= could well be beating 1♥=/+1

[mgoetze]

Zelandakh, on 2015-August-28, 03:35, said:

In England the LOLs have no trouble reaching game after a strong 2♥ opening. In Germany the KÄDs also have no problem after a Benji 2♣ opening. So clearly system takes some of the blame.

They'll also find game when north holds the king of diamonds rather than clubs - and go one off.

[billw55]

I prefer 3♣ to double at south's third call. If that doesn't wake up north, nothing will.

I also prefer 3♥ to 2♥.

North has chances to do more also, especially the third time around. Admittedly though, his enthusiasm is dampened by south's bidding up to that point.


So overall I ATB mostly to south.

[kenberg]

As South: I would open 1H and after P-P-2D I would bid 3H. If partner has the ten of clubs there should be a fair play for nine tricks.

As North: If partner opened 1H I would pass. If, after 2D, partner bid 3H I would raise to 4.If, after 2D, partner bid 2H I would, at least I think I would, raise to 3. I did pass the first time and I have absolutely as much as I could have for that pass. I think I should let partner know about that. Yes, it is possible that 8 tricks will be the limit of the hand but I figure that if I pass there will be some sort of action on my left, as there was, and it will be clearer if I bid 3H now instead of later.

As the auction went, after i pass 2H, it seems strange to bid 4H over the double How can I have a hand that is willing to bid 4H over the double but not willing to be 3H over 2H? Maybe I woould bid 4H over the X, but I would be wishing I had bid 3H the previous round.

Back to South for a moment. If, over the 2D, I had somehow chosen 2H instead of 3H and if it then went pass-pass-2S, I would bid 3C instead of X. Whatever was intended by X, it leaves open the possibility that partner might choose to pass. With this shape, I have no interest in playing 2SX. If, over my X, lho bids 3D, I have no interest in playing 3DX. If I am not interested in playing either 2sx OR 3dx,why don't I bid 3C to indicate I want to play in clubs or, preferably, hearts? I think that the X should mean: I have too much to sell out, but I am not sure whether we should be playing this in something or defending it in something doubled. With a 7-4 and two stiffs, I would emphasize my offense. If I bid 3C, and then 3D is bid on my left, I would respect a double by partner since I feel I have described my hand (or at least described it well enough that I should respect the double). As it is, after I double 2S, if lho bids 3D and partner doubles, I will be very uneasy. He will be expecting more scattered strength.

[Cyberyeti]

kenberg, on 2015-August-28, 06:55, said:

Back to South for a moment. If, over the 2D, I had somehow chosen 2H instead of 3H and if it then went pass-pass-2S, I would bid 3C instead of X. Whatever was intended by X, it leaves open the possibility that partner might choose to pass. With this shape, I have no interest in playing 2SX. If, over my X, lho bids 3D, I have no interest in playing 3DX. If I am not interested in playing either 2sx OR 3dx,why don't I bid 3C to indicate I want to play in clubs or, preferably, hearts? I think that the X should mean: I have too much to sell out, but I am not sure whether we should be playing this in something or defending it in something doubled. With a 7-4 and two stiffs, I would emphasize my offense. If I bid 3C, and then 3D is bid on my left, I would respect a double by partner since I feel I have described my hand (or at least described it well enough that I should respect the double). As it is, after I double 2S, if lho bids 3D and partner doubles, I will be very uneasy. He will be expecting more scattered strength.

For us, X shows 4 clubs, 3♣ shows 6+/5+ and not enough to bid 3♣ the round before.