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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#9201 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2018-February-05, 20:36

From Justices Won’t Block Pennsylvania Gerrymandering Decision by Adam Liptak at NYT:

Quote

WASHINGTON — The United States Supreme Court on Monday refused to stop Pennsylvania’s highest court from requiring lawmakers there to redraw the state’s congressional map, which the state court had found to be marred by partisan gerrymandering.

The Supreme Court’s order was expected, as the Pennsylvania court had based its decision solely on the state constitution. On matters of state law, the judgments of state supreme courts are typically final.

The order, which gave no reasons, came from Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., who acted without referring the case to the full court.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#9202 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-05, 20:55

View Postjjbrr, on 2018-February-05, 18:19, said:

Another point about Fredo-ism that I think bears mentioning is the brainwashing that Trump is doing to his base.

Today he called democrats "treasonous" for not applauding him, or some other such nonsense. This has the effect of mitigating the severity of actual treason among his base, so that when, after months of investigation, he might be accused of actual treason, his base will hand-wave it away as more political rhetoric.

Same with collusion. Fusion colluded with Hillary. FBI colluded with Hillary. Comey colluded with Hillary.
Same with fake news.

Same for "memos", which Comey wrote to himself and bore weight in his testimony about loyalty. Now the GOP is coming out with memos of their own which serve to discredit real work being done by competent investigators. Memos are, among his base, now political tools. Memos. Seriously.

This is how democracy dies.


From my understanding, this all comes straight from the Ray Cohn/Fredo playbook. to turn the same accusations back at the accusers as an attack.

As much as I admire Ken Berg, I think he has been wrong in espousing the view that insulting Fredo supporters does not good and may do harm. I don't think it matters to Fredo's troops. I think they wear insults as a pride button. If, after a year of Fredo's lies and attacks on democracy, those people who still support him will not change their views regardless of what is said by whom or against whom.

The only avenue left is to appeal to those who voted for Fredo but are not part of his army, disaffected Democrats and Independents and moderate Republicans. When you include the Democratic base with those, the number overwhelms the Fredo base. The trick will be getting them out to vote and to run non-Republican candidates for whom they feel they can vote.

Democracies most certainly can die. I think any reliance on the underlying solidarity of our own is an assumption that is risky and really undeserved. Sure, we have survived decisive moments in the past, but that was always with a citizenship with a moral compass in lieu of tribalism and a two-party system that at least gave a passing nod to and was ultimately unwilling to challenge the rule of law.

We are now through the mirror.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#9203 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-05, 23:18

Odd. It seems that some 4 days later there is still an unsettled question that Devin Nunes refuses to answer of whether or not the White House cooperated with or was involved in some other way in the planning of the memo.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#9204 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 00:18

Don't be disingenuous. Let's call a spade a spade. Among can't-thinkers, the Russians have succeeded to:
  • Undermine citizen confidence in democratic governance;
  • Foment and exacerbate divisive political fractures;
  • Erode trust between citizens and elected officials and democratic institutions;
  • Popularize Russian policy agendas within foreign populations;
  • Create general distrust or confusion over information sources by blurring the lines between fact and fiction

OK
bed
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#9205 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 08:03

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-February-05, 20:55, said:

As much as I admire Ken Berg, I think he has been wrong in espousing the view that insulting Fredo supporters does not good and may do harm. I don't think it matters to Fredo's troops. I think they wear insults as a pride button. If, after a year of Fredo's lies and attacks on democracy, those people who still support him will not change their views regardless of what is said by whom or against whom.


This does indeed get to the heart of how we see things differently. I almost always go back to direct personal experience in such matters, so I will tell you a true story. Back to 1960, I am engaged to the iron miner's daughter, I am up in northern Minnesota, my future father-in-law has taken me out to a bar to meet other guys. The discussion turns to the subject of race and the Twin Cities. The black population of Minneapolis was not large but they were sure this must be a problem. I simply talked of my experiences and by the time we left there was a noticeable willingness to think differently. I didn't call anyone names, and it probably helped that I was sill standing after a fair amount of drinking, but there was a shift in thinking.

I have known people who are sure that they are right about everything. We have all known such people. But most people are not that way.

Now to me. I mentioned this story before. In the summer of 1960 I was here in Maryland working for NASA before going back to grad school in the fall. Kennedy was running against Nixon. Easy choice, you say. But for me, a first time voter, it wasn't. I had been paying some attention to politics since I was very young, but put the accent on "some". I had worked while I was in high school, worked while I was in college, I was working a good deal of overtime in that summer, I was newly married. I paid some attention to the debates and such, but it was not a top priority. This is not so different from the iron miners. We have lives, not just political lives. The Harlem Globetrotters had played a game up in northern Minnesota which was probably the first and last time many of those guys saw anyone with black skin. They did not read black poetry. Not white poetry either.

People change their minds. But how? Not by being lectured at, but that only says how it doesn't happen. Human interaction seems like the best shot. Not a certainty.

One more story. In my youth, I rarely encountered anyone with black skin . This was St. Paul in the 1950s. Then I went to the University of Minnesota and that changed somewhat. I was usually aware of someone being black and this worried me. I was playing chess in a coffee house (Ten O'Clock Scholar for those who know the campus) and this black guy was watching, commenting on my every move. After a bit I said something such as "Look, you can play the winner. Until then shut up". Later I realized that I had treated this guy in exactly the way I would have treated a white guy and I relaxed a bit about whether I was paying too much attention to the color of skin.


Anyway, I recommend taking people one at a time. Let the sociologists do their groupings if they must.
Ken
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#9206 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 10:15

As I'm sure most people know, the stock market dropped significantly yesterday -- the DJIA dropped almost 1200 points, over 4% (this on top of other declines over the past couple of weeks since its high on Jan 26). So this correction has wiped out about 27% of the gain since the election.

Yesterday Mike Pence said that this was just part of the normal ebb and flow of the market. That's probably true. But if ebbs and flows are normal, why does Trump get to take responsibility for the flows, but not blame for the ebbs? Especially since the gains were just a continuation of the direction the market had been moving in for years.

#9207 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 11:05

View Postbarmar, on 2018-February-06, 10:15, said:

As I'm sure most people know, the stock market dropped significantly yesterday -- the DJIA dropped almost 1200 points, over 4% (this on top of other declines over the past couple of weeks since its high on Jan 26). So this correction has wiped out about 27% of the gain since the election.

Yesterday Mike Pence said that this was just part of the normal ebb and flow of the market. That's probably true. But if ebbs and flows are normal, why does Trump get to take responsibility for the flows, but not blame for the ebbs? Especially since the gains were just a continuation of the direction the market had been moving in for years.


I keep it simple. I didn't like Trump when the stock market was going up, I don't like him when the stock market is going down, I won't
like him when the stock market levels off and, perhaps, starts going up again. I can be stubborn. Or dependable, take your pick.
Ken
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#9208 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 11:32

Seriously, does anyone truly think this group of people is capable of listening to reason?

Quote

Nearly three-quarters of Trump voters ― 74 percent ― say the FBI is biased against the president, a new HuffPost/YouGov survey finds.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#9209 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 11:33

View Postbarmar, on 2018-February-06, 10:15, said:

As I'm sure most people know, the stock market dropped significantly yesterday -- the DJIA dropped almost 1200 points, over 4% (this on top of other declines over the past couple of weeks since its high on Jan 26). So this correction has wiped out about 27% of the gain since the election.

Yesterday Mike Pence said that this was just part of the normal ebb and flow of the market. That's probably true. But if ebbs and flows are normal, why does Trump get to take responsibility for the flows, but not blame for the ebbs? Especially since the gains were just a continuation of the direction the market had been moving in for years.

And Sean Hannity of Fox News claimed the drop was Obama's fault. I wonder how many millions believe him?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#9210 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 15:51

https://www.newyorke...ustrial-average
Ken
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#9211 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 16:33

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-February-06, 11:33, said:

And Sean Hannity of Fox News claimed the drop was Obama's fault. I wonder how many millions believe him?


Just for logical consistency, if the stock market rise is credited to Trump then the drop is credited to Trump. If the rise is credited to Obama then the drop is credited to Obama.
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#9212 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 16:37

View Postkenberg, on 2018-February-06, 15:51, said:


The failing Dow Jones.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#9213 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 16:56

View Posty66, on 2018-February-06, 16:37, said:

The failing Dow Jones.


FFS

Trump's key mistake is conflating a rising Dow with a successful economy.

Don't make the same mistake, especially when its based on a two day trend
Alderaan delenda est
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#9214 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-06, 21:59

Quote

Democratic candidate Mike Revis on Tuesday flipped a deep-red State House seat in Missouri by a 108-vote margin over his Republican opponent. Revis defeated GOP candidate David C. Linton in the special election to replace Rep. John McCaherty, who left the office to focus on his run for Jefferson County executive. President Trump won the heavily Republican district by a 61-33 margin in the 2016 election. This marks the 35th legislative seat nationwide that has flipped since Trump’s inauguration and the second just this year. —Gideon Resnick


And another view:(emphasis added)

Quote

Mike Revis, 27, defeated his Republican opponent in a special election Tuesday by 3 percentage points.

The 97th District in Jefferson County went for Trump in the presidential election by 28 points.

In other words, the district has swung 31 percentage points toward Democrats since Trump won last year.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#9215 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2018-February-07, 08:02

View Posthrothgar, on 2018-February-06, 16:56, said:

FFS

Trump's key mistake is conflating a rising Dow with a successful economy.

Don't make the same mistake, especially when its based on a two day trend

"Failing" was intended as sarcasm. Sorry. I thought it was obvious in context. I can't imagine anyone who posts here making either of the errors you mentioned.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#9216 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2018-February-07, 08:24

View Posty66, on 2018-February-07, 08:02, said:

"Failing" was intended as sarcasm. Sorry. I thought it was obvious in context. I can't imagine anyone who posts here making either of the errors you mentioned.


I was thinking of posting "Y is just going along with the gag" but I figured you could clarify if you chose to.

Richard, if you take a look at the article you will see, for example

Quote

En route to an appearance in Ohio, Trump stopped short of saying that he would ask for the stock market index's resignation, but his contempt for the Dow was palpable."The Dow Jones Industrial Average is a disgrace, and it should be very, very ashamed of itself," he said.


I particularly liked the suggestion that Sarah Huckabee Sanders could give a daily 4 pm briefing on how high stocks had rocketed.

I understand that much of what Trump does has become more worrisome than funny, but a little humor from time to time can still help.

On the serious side, I completely agree that the health of the economy, current and projected, is the important issue. Economic health, and especially projected future economic health, is related to but not the same as a rising stock market. The stock market has gone a little nuts, probably partly because people like to get rich without actually having to do anything, not even think. This is the same reason casinos make so much money. But also robots have taken over a lot of trading. I play bridge with the bots. They can do good things. They can also do things which make no sense whatsoever. Maybe the stock market bots are fully rational. Maybe not.
Ken
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#9217 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-February-07, 09:00

View Postkenberg, on 2018-February-07, 08:24, said:

I was thinking of posting "Y is just going along with the gag" but I figured you could clarify if you chose to.

Richard, if you take a look at the article you will see, for example



Understood, however, the gag seems dreadfully premature...
Alderaan delenda est
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#9218 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-February-07, 09:55

View Postkenberg, on 2018-February-07, 08:24, said:

I understand that much of what Trump does has become more worrisome than funny, but a little humor from time to time can still help.

The problem with life in the Trump era is that so much of what he says and does (e.g. calling Democracts "treasonous" for not applauding during SOTU) would previously have been satirical fiction. So it can be difficult to tell the difference.

I wasn't really sure about the New Yorker article until I saw "Satire from the Borowitz Report" at the top of it. Trump is clueless enough that the article is not totally unbelievable.

#9219 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2018-February-07, 10:01

Speaking of Borowitz, here he is again giving the real villain his due:

Quote

NEW YORK (The Borowitz Report)—One day after the Fox News Channel host Sean Hannity blamed him for the historic plunge in the Dow Jones Industrial Average, former President Barack Obama agreed to stop making stocks tumble.

“Sean Hannity has accused me of making the stock market go down,” Obama told reporters on Tuesday morning. “All I have to say is, ‘Guilty as charged.’ ”

A visibly chastened Obama said that, at first, he thought that he had gotten away with making the stock market crash, but when he saw Hannity blame him on Fox, “I knew I had been busted.”
Obama offered scant explanation for why he had made stocks crash on Monday. “I guess since leaving the White House I haven’t really found enough ways to fill my time, so tanking the stock market seemed like something to do,” he said. “But I know that’s not a good excuse. The fact is, I caused a lot of folks a lot of pain yesterday, and for that I am very, very sorry.”

He said that he would “get to work right away” to return stocks to their previously lofty levels. “I made the stock market go down, and, darn it, I can make it go up again,” he said.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#9220 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2018-February-07, 10:05

Jonathan Bernstein at Bloomberg has this take on the problem barmar alluded to.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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