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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#21061 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-August-22, 11:12

Libertarian, anarchist, socialist, capitalist, democrat, liberal, fascist. You should probably find out what these words actually mean before throwing them around. Some do have different meanings depending on the local politics - in the US a liberal is a social liberal; in the UK they is a classical liberal; and in Germany it loosely means economic liberal. You do not need detailed regional information to participate but it at least helps to have some basic grasp.

View Postthepossum, on 2023-August-21, 01:30, said:

I love the idea of anyone standing for President from prison

It is not so long ago that a US election was won from a coffin, so why not?
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#21062 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-August-22, 11:52

View Postthepossum, on 2023-August-21, 01:30, said:

I have my concerns though. I regard myself as libertarian in many regards but sadly some mistake things like that as being fascist

Same for anarchists. I regard myself as one of them too and socialist

Probably capitalist too to avoid misunderstandings. Maybe democracy too provided not the fascist interpretation

A liberal too. Just whoever believes in freedom and rights. And not imposing on and denying others those rights

Whatever they are called in different parts of the world

Notice I use small letters for everything to be on the safe side

But many of them mistake their ideology for fascism or the other way around

It's brutally sad and sounds contradictory but who can we rely on to maintain some decency and fairness anymore

UN Declaration on Human Rights comes close to representing most of my views. How they apply to all of us. There could be a few I think need to be interpreted flexibly and sensitive to culture and nationality

I love the idea of anyone standing for President from prison


Over the years I have known both a reasonable number of libertarians and a reasonable number of socialists. I really can't think of any item on which a libertarian and a socialist would agree so it is hard to see how someone can be both. But maybe that just illustrates the problem of categories. If a libertarian socialist maintains, for example, that there is a role for the government in providing educational access for children but should stand back from teaching which viewpoints are right or wrong maybe I can see that. Still, if you accept the parallel postulate, you also have to accept that the interior angles of any triangle sum to 180 degrees. Freedom has its limits.
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#21063 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2023-August-23, 14:51

View Postjohnu, on 2023-August-17, 03:33, said:

Also, Georgia state pardons can only be granted 5 years after the sentence has been completed, by a parole board, not the governor.

What's the point of pardoning after the sentencing has been completed? It removes it from your criminal record, but you've still suffered all the punishment.

Are you sure about that?

#21064 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2023-August-23, 17:38

View Postbarmar, on 2023-August-23, 14:51, said:

What's the point of pardoning after the sentencing has been completed? It removes it from your criminal record, but you've still suffered all the punishment.

Are you sure about that?

As sure as a non Georgia lawyer can be. I actually read the Georgia statutes about pardons after hearing a current Georgia county DA and a couple of other Georgia lawyers discussing pardons after the RICO charges were brought, and the 5 year minimum sentencing (unlike the 2 Federal indictments which do not carry minimum sentences IIRC).

For seniors who are basically retired, or those who own their own businesses, being pardoned probably doesn't mean a lot. For those who are younger and may be looking for a job, or running for office, or seeking some kind of appointment, being able to say that they were pardoned may be more important.

Certainly, this pardon is nowhere near as good as the get out of jail presidential pardons.
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#21065 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-August-23, 17:54

View Postbarmar, on 2023-August-23, 14:51, said:

What's the point of pardoning after the sentencing has been completed? It removes it from your criminal record, but you've still suffered all the punishment.

Are you sure about that?

From the official website:

Quote

When am I eligible to apply for a Pardon?
You must have completed all sentence(s) at least five (5) years prior to applying and have lived a law-abiding life since the completion of your sentence(s). You can have no pending charges against you. All fines must be paid in full. HOWEVER, if you are seeking a Pardon for a sex offense which requires you to be listed on Georgia’s Sex Offender Registry, there are additional requirements and you must apply using the Sex Offender Pardon application found on the State Board of Pardons and Paroles' website.


The process seems primarily to be about restoring citizenship rights that GA takes away after a conviction. Specifically, "A Pardon is an act of official forgiveness and is granted only in exceptional cases. It may serve as a means for the petitioner to advance in employment or education. A pardon does not expunge (remove) an offense from your record."
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#21066 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-August-25, 05:33

Anyone giving odds on the mug's chances of an acquittal?
Posted Image
Non legit hoc
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#21067 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-August-25, 10:59

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-August-25, 05:33, said:

Anyone giving odds on the mug's chances of an acquittal?

Are you confident that Judge Cannon will even offer a "Guilty" option on the jury decision sheet at this point?
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#21068 User is offline   PeterAlan 

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Posted 2023-August-25, 12:03

Who owns the copyright of the mugshot? Can the county demand a take from the merchandise?
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#21069 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-August-25, 14:23

View PostGilithin, on 2023-August-25, 10:59, said:

Are you confident that Judge Cannon will even offer a "Guilty" option on the jury decision sheet at this point?


Judge Cannon is a Federal Court judge in Florida. This is the Georgia State Court. She can't do anything.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21070 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-August-25, 17:22

View PostWinstonm, on 2023-August-25, 14:23, said:

Judge Cannon is a Federal Court judge in Florida. This is the Georgia State Court. She can't do anything.

There are 4 indictments so far. I was not aware that people had already written off the previous 3.
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#21071 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-August-27, 10:36

View PostGilithin, on 2023-August-25, 17:22, said:

There are 4 indictments so far. I was not aware that people had already written off the previous 3.


I don’t follow your thoughts. I think the discussion was about the Georgia charges and my comment was meant as helpful to point out that each venue New York, Georgia, Florida (federal), and D.C.(federal) has a different judge and what each rules does not affect any other judge unless appealed and ruled on which then establishes precedent.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21072 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-August-27, 11:12

View PostWinstonm, on 2023-August-27, 10:36, said:

I don’t follow your thoughts. I think the discussion was about the Georgia charges and my comment was meant as helpful to point out that each venue New York, Georgia, Florida (federal), and D.C.(federal) has a different judge and what each rules does not affect any other judge unless appealed and ruled on which then establishes precedent.

You may have been talking specifically about GA but I took pilowsky's question to be more general (and probably rhetorical) about Trump's chances of being acquitted across the board. Maybe he can clarify.
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#21073 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-August-27, 16:51

View PostGilithin, on 2023-August-27, 11:12, said:

You may have been talking specifically about GA but I took pilowsky's question to be more general (and probably rhetorical) about Trump's chances of being acquitted across the board. Maybe he can clarify.

It's both.
The mugshot stands as a synecdoche for all of Trump's legal and political troubles as well as specifically in GA.
Now there are also legal challenges to his candidature based on the 14th amendment.




Non legit hoc
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#21074 User is offline   garfinkle 

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Posted 2023-August-27, 17:50

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-August-25, 05:33, said:

Anyone giving odds on the mug's chances of an acquittal?
Posted Image


The defense attorney's job is to find the 12 most ignorant members of the community. The same can be said about the prosecutor's job.
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#21075 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-August-27, 18:53

View Postgarfinkle, on 2023-August-27, 17:50, said:

The defense attorney's job is to find the 12 most ignorant members of the community. The same can be said about the prosecutor's job.

The prosecutors just need to find 12 people willing to judge the evidence on its merits.
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#21076 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-August-28, 08:07

View PostGilithin, on 2023-August-27, 18:53, said:

The prosecutors just need to find 12 people willing to judge the evidence on its merits.


I have been wondering about this.If I were a prospective jurist I would answer honestly. I think Trump is a horrible person and it was a great mistake to make him our president. I thought he was a jerk before he ran for office, I never watched his tv show, etc. Still, I think I could judge him honestly as to whether he did or did not commit a specific crime by specific actions that went against a specific law. That's what the rule of law requires. But would a defense lawyer, or the judge, accept me as a juror? But if not, who do they get? Pretty much no one is neutral about Trump. If someone says that they are, in either direction, I would suspect them of lying. Or else they live in a cave.

I have no idea how they will find 12 jurors. I honestly believe I could judge his guilt/innocence on the merits of the specific case but I can understand why no one would believe me when I say so.
Ken
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#21077 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2023-August-28, 09:11

View Postkenberg, on 2023-August-28, 08:07, said:

I have been wondering about this.If I were a prospective jurist I would answer honestly. I think Trump is a horrible person and it was a great mistake to make him our president. I thought he was a jerk before he ran for office, I never watched his tv show, etc. Still, I think I could judge him honestly as to whether he did or did not commit a specific crime by specific actions that went against a specific law. That's what the rule of law requires. But would a defense lawyer, or the judge, accept me as a juror? But if not, who do they get? Pretty much no one is neutral about Trump. If someone says that they are, in either direction, I would suspect them of lying. Or else they live in a cave.

I have no idea how they will find 12 jurors. I honestly believe I could judge his guilt/innocence on the merits of the specific case but I can understand why no one would believe me when I say so.


Each side gets an unlimited number of challenges for cause - if either side can prove you would be biased, they get to not have you serve on the jury. It doesn't look like the judge would uphold a challenge for cause for someone like you.

After that, either side can dismiss jurors, but only a limited number (for each side). The defense might not want you on the jury, but with a limited number of dismissals, it might have to pick between dismissing you or dismissing someone else.
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#21078 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-August-28, 09:14

View Postkenberg, on 2023-August-28, 08:07, said:

I have been wondering about this.If I were a prospective jurist I would answer honestly. I think Trump is a horrible person and it was a great mistake to make him our president. I thought he was a jerk before he ran for office, I never watched his tv show, etc. Still, I think I could judge him honestly as to whether he did or did not commit a specific crime by specific actions that went against a specific law. That's what the rule of law requires. But would a defense lawyer, or the judge, accept me as a juror? But if not, who do they get? Pretty much no one is neutral about Trump. If someone says that they are, in either direction, I would suspect them of lying. Or else they live in a cave.

I have no idea how they will find 12 jurors. I honestly believe I could judge his guilt/innocence on the merits of the specific case but I can understand why no one would believe me when I say so.


I'm not really concerned about jurors or public opinion about the jurors' verdicts. I am more concerned about potential sentencing and potential pardoning.

I really do not think it is healthy for the world to witness actions of the country that is supposed to be the leader in Justice and human rights displaying a flawed and two-tiered system of justice for the rest of the world to see and emulate.
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#21079 User is offline   garfinkle 

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Posted 2023-August-28, 17:48

View PostWinstonm, on 2023-August-28, 09:14, said:

I really do not think it is healthy for the world to witness actions of the country that is supposed to be the leader in Justice and human rights displaying a flawed and two-tiered system of justice for the rest of the world to see and emulate.

Nor do I.
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#21080 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-August-28, 22:48

View PostGilithin, on 2023-August-22, 11:12, said:

Libertarian, anarchist, socialist, capitalist, democrat, liberal, fascist. You should probably find out what these words actually mean before throwing them around. Some do have different meanings depending on the local politics - in the US a liberal is a social liberal; in the UK they is a classical liberal; and in Germany it loosely means economic liberal. You do not need detailed regional information to participate but it at least helps to have some basic grasp.


It is not so long ago that a US election was won from a coffin, so why not?



I think I would know what I was talking about than anyone else. People need more imagination

Antifascist and antiauthoritarian to make it simple. My socialism is especially of the libertarian variety. And I am a strong advocate for reasonable markets and investment and fair returns on risk
Liberal as in liberal - ie free to be and do what you feel like as long as you don't hurt anyone else

I can at least try can't I?

I would have no idea who to vote for in the USA. At least in Australia I can play around with preferences a bit

Human Rights. Its simple really if you consider they apply to everyone

I honestly don't understand the need for so many on these forums to go ad hom. Why? It's a fundamental failure in basic argument and decency. Where do people learn that its acceptable. Bridge Clubs?
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