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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#18761 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-11, 18:35

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-September-11, 17:24, said:

No wonder it's hard to get US citizenship.

😉
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18762 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-September-11, 19:23

Quote

As to the poll, I have grown increasingly suspect about all polls, this one included.



View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-11, 16:32, said:

Here in the U.S., the second meaning of suspect, i.e., to have doubts of : DISTRUST, is a fairly common usage.

I believe that in your usage:
"As to the poll, I have grown increasingly suspect about all polls, this one included. "
the word "suspect" is being used as an adjective.
As in
"As to the poll, I have grown increasingly happy about all polls, this one included. "
or
"As to the poll, I have grown increasingly confused about all polls, this one included. "


The dictionary reference you provide treats "distrust as either a noun or a verb.



"Suspicious" is an adjective. That makes it the right choice for this phrasing.

So I recall from Miss Kinne's class in 1952.
Ken
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#18763 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-September-11, 21:16

View Postkenberg, on 2021-September-11, 19:23, said:

The dictionary reference you provide treats "distrust as either a noun or a verb.

Try this one.
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#18764 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-11, 22:47

View PostGilithin, on 2021-September-11, 21:16, said:

Try this one.


Or this one.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18765 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-September-11, 22:58

What other people think about health care in the USA - from the NYT. - they do one on elections as well.
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#18766 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 01:26

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-September-11, 15:18, said:

No country in Europe is crazier than the USA (the use of the term 'liberal' in reference to political philosophy is comical in the USA).


1. Switzerland is very tough on citizenship, but citizenship happens to about 0.5% of the population per year (around 40,000 new citizens). More importantly, there is a clearly defined pathway.
Switzerland is renowned as the toughest of all European countries. Amongst the many racist things about the USA, you still have to pass an English test to become a citizen (no nasty tinted people allowed here).
The US grants citizenship to ~850,000 people each year - which is about 0.26% - roughly half as welcoming as the Swiss - who are notorious (although better than the Japanese).


When Melania Trump gave a speech she was "called out" by important people like Bette Midler because "she can't speak English".
This is hilarious coming from a country where the President ordered the removal of diphthongs because they were too hard to spell; the reason the Americans have fones of different colors I suppose.


2. The US govt produces forms in every language - how is this a form of liberalism?


3. No official church: I take it this is some sort of joke? In the US, funding of churches (in the form of tax concessions) is given to any youtube that believes almost anything that must be "taken on faith" - including the church of sciencefictionology.


The number of naturalizations is not a good comparison point because about 1/3 of Switzerland’s population is non-citizens (mostly from other places on Europe but some from further away); this percentage in the US is much lower. And while Switzerland is known for being harsh in this regard, Germany is not much easier and the UK just left the EU in large part because they didn’t like letting in immigrants from Eastern Europe (much less refugees from Africa or the Middle East).

My point is that many countries are having debates about immigration, but the US in general has been friendlier to immigrants than many countries. They can communicate in their own language (even to the government), they can practice their religion (compare to France which bans wearing religious symbols in many contexts or Switzerland banning minarets) and obtaining citizenship is relatively easy (language tests are a citizenship requirement in almost every country for naturalization, but the US gives automatic citizenship to people born there while Europe does not).

Of course, the US is very much a crazy outlier with regard to gun laws and the social safety net. But it’s not just uniformly more conservative on every issue; the lines of debate are just different by country.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#18767 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 04:16

View Postawm, on 2021-September-12, 01:26, said:

The number of naturalizations is not a good comparison point because about 1/3 of Switzerland's population is non-citizens (mostly from other places on Europe but some from further away); this percentage in the US is much lower. And while Switzerland is known for being harsh in this regard, Germany is not much easier and the UK just left the EU in large part because they didn't like letting in immigrants from Eastern Europe (much less refugees from Africa or the Middle East).


Fair point.
From here, we get into a very lengthy discussion about how each country treats all its people: citizens, non-citizens, ex-felons, etc.
A rabbit hole best avoided, I think.
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#18768 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 05:48

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-11, 22:47, said:

Or this one.


Ha yes, used as an adjective. But note the examples:
The government’s statistics are suspect.

He might have suspect motives in accusing her of malpractice.



Used in this way, the government's statistics are not to be trusted, and the accuser's motives are not to be trusted.

Neither example goes "I am suspect of the statistic's or I am suspect of the accuser's motives.
Odd phrasing.

Us Minnesotans don't never talk that way.
Ken
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#18769 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 07:18

View Postawm, on 2021-September-12, 01:26, said:

The number of naturalizations is not a good comparison point because about 1/3 of Switzerland's population is non-citizens (mostly from other places on Europe but some from further away); this percentage in the US is much lower. And while Switzerland is known for being harsh in this regard, Germany is not much easier and the UK just left the EU in large part because they didn't like letting in immigrants from Eastern Europe (much less refugees from Africa or the Middle East).

My point is that many countries are having debates about immigration, but the US in general has been friendlier to immigrants than many countries. They can communicate in their own language (even to the government), they can practice their religion (compare to France which bans wearing religious symbols in many contexts or Switzerland banning minarets) and obtaining citizenship is relatively easy (language tests are a citizenship requirement in almost every country for naturalization, but the US gives automatic citizenship to people born there while Europe does not).

Of course, the US is very much a crazy outlier with regard to gun laws and the social safety net. But it's not just uniformly more conservative on every issue; the lines of debate are just different by country.


I'll get to a specific or two in a minute but first a general thought.

You are one of the few people I know (to the extent online conversation is related to knowing) that was born in the US but is now living, and I gather expecting to live for the foreseeable future, in Europe. Offhand, I can't think of another. I have known people who have moved to Canada, and people who have moved to Israel, but I can't think of anyone other than you who moved to Europe.
This is asymmetric. My father came to the US from Europe. My maternal grandfather came from Europe. The father of one of my closest childhood friends (we still see each other 70 years later) came from Europe. I would have no trouble making a long list.

And even travel seems asymmetric. Growing up in Minnesota I once visited relatives in Chicago. I lived in Maryland for the summer when I was 21. When I was 26 or so I went canoeing in northern Manitoba. And then even to Boston for a week or so. I was in my 30s when I first crossed the Atlantic. That's not unusual.

In short, Europeans posting here have had far more direct experience with the US than I have had with Europe. A great deal more. I am not sure what to make of that, but it seems to be a fact.

Now to a couple of your specifics.

Guns: Recently there was a deer in my backyard lying on its side and clearly dying. I called the county, a game warden came out and he said I should shoot it. I explained that I did not have a rifle. He was surprised but suggested that I borrow one from a neighbor., I explained that I did not know which of my neighbors owned a rifle and I was not interested in going door to door to find out. He gave up on me, and got a rifle, and killed the deer. As I recall, it took him two shots to do so even though he had a high-powered rifle and presumably knew the best way to go about it.

I had a BB gun when I was young and a shotgun when I was 12. I got a car when I was 15 and my fellow 15 year-olds and I would go out hunting together. In my early 20s I decided that I really was not Daniel Boone and I was going to put away the shotgun before I accidentally killed someone or someone killed me.

I won't say that a gun is never useful. When I was maybe 8 we had a woman and her two daughters living with us after she had left her abusive husband. The husband came by, banging on the screen door demanding to be let in. My father wasn't home, my mother had my father's 12 gauge pointed at the door, explaining to him that he was not coming in. After a bit, he left. I could still tell you exactly where I was standing as this unfolded. But it's best to let the cops handle it. Hopefully, they know what they are doing.

Now about immigration. I want intelligent people to think this through. This is not a matter to be decided by a poll. Of course, I have known people who can trace their ancestry back to the Mayflower. In fact, the Mayflower must have been a very crowded ship. But most of us don't have to look very far to see immigrants or the kids and grandkids of immigrants. So of course we should see immigration as a good thing. What we have is chaos. Immigration is good, chaos is not good. I hope we can improve on this, but I am not the one to lay out explicit plans of how to do this.
Ken
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#18770 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 07:19

View Postkenberg, on 2021-September-12, 05:48, said:

Odd phrasing.

Would you find it easier to believe the Oxford University Press?

Quote

Partisans can become increasingly suspect of all news sources outside of their own political bubble


Or indeed an association dedicated to education in communication:-

Quote

the American middle class was growing increasingly suspect of corporate America


It may not work in Minnesota but there are thousands of examples of this usage available for the rest of the world.
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#18771 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 08:59

View PostGilithin, on 2021-September-12, 07:19, said:

Would you find it easier to believe the Oxford University Press?


Or indeed an association dedicated to education in communication:-


It may not work in Minnesota but there are thousands of examples of this usage available for the rest of the world.

Live and learn. Well, I live at least.
Ken
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#18772 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 10:27

View PostGilithin, on 2021-September-12, 07:19, said:

Would you find it easier to believe the Oxford University Press?

It may not work in Minnesota but there are thousands of examples of this usage available for the rest of the world.


I wouldn't say in the rest of the world (note the OUP authors are 2 from the US and a German), nobody in the UK uses it like that, we would say suspicious rather than suspect.
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#18773 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 10:37

View Postkenberg, on 2021-September-12, 08:59, said:

Live and learn. Well, I live at least.


That phrasing must affect you like it does me when someone says, "I will grow the economy"; I understand it is proper but it strikes my ear as way wrong.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18774 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 10:43

View Postkenberg, on 2021-September-12, 05:48, said:

Ha yes, used as an adjective. But note the examples:
The government's statistics are suspect.

He might have suspect motives in accusing her of malpractice.



Used in this way, the government's statistics are not to be trusted, and the accuser's motives are not to be trusted.

Neither example goes "I am suspect of the statistic's or I am suspect of the accuser's motives.
Odd phrasing.

Us Minnesotans don't never talk that way.


I've been suspect of people from the northern states ever since I watched Fargo and heard Frances McDormand's line, "and it's a beautiful day" while describing the view from her patrol car on a sub-zero day in a frozen, snow-and-ice-covered tundra. Posted Image
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18775 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 11:43

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-12, 10:43, said:

I've been suspect of people from the northern states ever since I watched Fargo and heard Frances McDormand's line, "and it's a beautiful day" while describing the view from her patrol car on a sub-zero day in a frozen, snow-and-ice-covered tundra. Posted Image



One of the charming features of Fargo was that. for better or worse, I often felt "Yep, that's us" while watching it. Exaggerated of course, but I did, for example, regularly go ice skating in sub-zero weather.
And, of course,
Frances McDormand was perfect for the role.
The TV series got old fast, as far as I was concerned.

Cold weather is easy, you put on warm clothes. Of course snow and ice can be a problem, but so can hurricanes further south.
"Some say the world will end in fire, some say in ice".
And, just so I do not re-ignite the plagiarism issue, yes, I am quoting Robert Frost.
"For destruction ice is also great and would suffice"
Ken
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#18776 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 12:15

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-12, 10:43, said:

I've been suspect of people from the northern states ever since I watched Fargo and heard Frances McDormand's line, "and it's a beautiful day" while describing the view from her patrol car on a sub-zero day in a frozen, snow-and-ice-covered tundra. Posted Image

There was more to it:

Quote

So that was Mrs Lundegaard on the floor in there?

And I guess that was your accomplice in the wood chipper.

And those three people in Brainerd.

And for what?

For a little bit of money.

There's more to life than a little money, you know.

Don't you know that?

And here y'are.

And it's a beautiful day.

(siren)

Well. I just don't understand it.

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#18777 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 14:17

View Postkenberg, on 2021-September-12, 05:48, said:

Ha yes, used as an adjective. But note the examples:
The government's statistics are suspect.

He might have suspect motives in accusing her of malpractice.



Used in this way, the government's statistics are not to be trusted, and the accuser's motives are not to be trusted.

Neither example goes "I am suspect of the statistic's or I am suspect of the accuser's motives.
Odd phrasing.

Us Minnesotans don't never talk that way.


He's rightcha know.
I've heard Garrison Keillor on the radio.
He devotes many hours to discussions about accents and wrote extensively on the topic: https://www.prairieh...nt-school.html.


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#18778 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 15:24

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-September-11, 15:18, said:

No country in Europe is crazier than the USA (the use of the term 'liberal' in reference to political philosophy is comical in the USA).


In the US, anything that goes against the current right fringe fascist Republican orthodoxy is called liberal, or communist. :rolleyes:
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#18779 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 17:57

View Postjohnu, on 2021-September-12, 15:24, said:

In the US, anything that goes against the current right fringe fascist Republican orthodoxy is called liberal, or communist. :rolleyes:


Looks like the fringe is wagging the dog.
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#18780 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 20:53

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-September-11, 15:40, said:

My vote is typically against my self-interest as an American would perceive it since the party I'm a member of favours higher taxation and more government spending on pointless activities such as health education and welfare.

That's not necessarily against your self-interest. It just indicates that you understand that you have to spend money to make your life better. You're willing to pay more in taxes if it benefits society, which comes around and benefits you.

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