[Zelandakh]

 Winstonm, on 2016-May-18, 09:38, said:

I cannot vouch for the quality of this information. It appeared on a site called Alternet. If accurate, it could go a long way to explaining why Trump does not want to release his tax records.

There's a large difference between what you make in terms of adding personal wealth and your taxable income. Tax avoidance is big business and for the most completely legal.

[Winstonm]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-May-18, 10:56, said:

There's a large difference between what you make in terms of adding personal wealth and your taxable income. Tax avoidance is big business and for the most completely legal.

Still, it is hard to imagine a billionaire earning less than $500 K income in a year.

[Al_U_Card]

 Winstonm, on 2016-May-18, 15:37, said:

Still, it is hard to imagine a billionaire earning less than $500 K income in a year.

AFTER expenses...tax lawyers and accountants make sure that you pay the minimum legal tax payable. Loopholes and incentives are designed to ensure this.

[Zelandakh]

 Winstonm, on 2016-May-18, 15:37, said:

Still, it is hard to imagine a billionaire earning less than $500 K income in a year.

Apple's tax rate is reputedly less than 2%. If Trump achieved something similar that still leaves room for $25mil of profit in the year. That does not strike me as too bad a return given the current economic climate.

[Winstonm]

Here is the Flim-Flam man in deposition:

Quote

The limited public record of the lawsuit includes interesting revelations. One is Trump’s admission, under questioning from O’Brien’s attorneys during a deposition, that he relied on his own “feelings” to assess the value of his holdings.

An attorney asked: Feelings?

“Yes, even my own feelings as to where the world is, where the world is going, and that can change rapidly from day to day,” Trump said, according to the court record. “Then you have a September 11th, and you don’t feel so good about yourself and you don’t feel so good about the world and you don’t feel so good about New York City. Then you have a year later, and the city is as hot as a pistol. Even months after that it was a different feeling. So yeah, even my own feelings affect my value to myself.”

In the book that prompted this Trump libel suit (which was thrown out), O'Brien estimated Trump to be worth $150-$250 million.

Quote

Trump went to court in early 2006, claiming that he had been libeled in the book “TrumpNation: The Art of Being The Donald,” by Timothy L. O’Brien, then a business reporter at the New York Times.

[barmar]

 Winstonm, on 2016-May-18, 15:37, said:

Still, it is hard to imagine a billionaire earning less than $500 K income in a year.

Probably the vast majority of his earnings is in the form of stock options, goes to corporations and trusts, is unrealized capital gains, or some other way of keeping it from being included in taxable income.

This is one of the likely problems with some of the "millionnaire tax" proposals -- you can be very wealthy without it actually showing up on the income sheets.

[Winstonm]

 barmar, on 2016-May-19, 09:25, said:

Probably the vast majority of his earnings is in the form of stock options, goes to corporations and trusts, is unrealized capital gains, or some other way of keeping it from being included in taxable income.

This is one of the likely problems with some of the "millionnaire tax" proposals -- you can be very wealthy without it actually showing up on the income sheets.

Do you think O'Brien may have been right when he wrote that Trump vastly overstates his personal wealth?

[mike777]

It will be interesting to see what issues really matter at this point for undecided voters. I am guessing the few truly undecided voters between trump and clinton or stay at home...will not care about or read his tax returns.

[Al_U_Card]

Appeals to reason and logic work in Debate Club.
Elections are won by visceral appeals to fear and insecurity. "Make America great, (again?)" "Hope and change" " The great society".

DT is pandering but he has sensed the riled-up, dissatisfaction with current politics/economy/society that inhabits and provokes the man in the street. He may well ride that wave into the WH.

[awm]

 Winstonm, on 2016-May-19, 11:42, said:

Do you think O'Brien may have been right when he wrote that Trump vastly overstates his personal wealth?

Trump supposedly has a lot of money in real estate holdings (although he doesn't own every building with his name on it). These holdings can be difficult to value accurately. While it sounds dumb when he says his net worth "depends on how he feels that day" it's really anyone's guess what his buildings are worth when they're not up for sale.

[barmar]

 awm, on 2016-May-19, 15:58, said:

Trump supposedly has a lot of money in real estate holdings (although he doesn't own every building with his name on it). These holdings can be difficult to value accurately. While it sounds dumb when he says his net worth "depends on how he feels that day" it's really anyone's guess what his buildings are worth when they're not up for sale.

Now I'm trying to imagine the job of the city assessor trying to put a value on something like the Empire State Building. What are "comparables"?

[barmar]

 barmar, on 2016-May-20, 09:26, said:

Now I'm trying to imagine the job of the city assessor trying to put a value on something like the Empire State Building. What are "comparables"?

To answer my own question, for an office building you don't have to find similar buildings, you add up the values of the offices. So he just finds out how much the building owner is leasing the offices for, or looks at lease rates for similar offices in other buildings (with adjustments for extra "prestige" of higher floors).

[Winstonm]

I think the answer is fairly simple - if you liquidated your assets and paid off all debt, would you have $1 billion or more in cash? If the answer is no, then you are not worth $1 billion.

[barmar]

 Winstonm, on 2016-May-20, 11:00, said:

I think the answer is fairly simple - if you liquidated your assets and paid off all debt, would you have $1 billion or more in cash? If the answer is no, then you are not worth $1 billion.

Easy to say, hard to calculate in practice.

Just consider a simple example like Bill Gates's shares in Microsoft. On paper he can value them based on the current share price. But if he actually tried to sell them all at that price, he probably couldn't, because there wouldn't be enough buyers at any one time. If he were really desperate for the cash, he'd probably have to lower his selling price significantly to get more buyers into the market for them.

And that's for something where there's a public market that sets prices. When you get into real estate, which is Trump's main business, it gets much trickier. How can you know how much a Trump casino will sell for until you actually try to sell it?

[Winstonm]

Here is a remarkable article that may explain not only Trump but many other political mysteries.

Quote

Together, those three insights added up to one terrifying theory: that if social change and physical threats coincided at the same time, it could awaken a potentially enormous population of American authoritarians, who would demand a strongman leader and the extreme policies necessary, in their view, to meet the rising threats.

Fascinating but also a little spooky.

[Cyberyeti]

Saw this, felt the need to share, made me laugh.

https://s-media-cach...ec6ff10087a.jpg

[mike777]

 barmar, on 2016-May-20, 12:14, said:

Easy to say, hard to calculate in practice.

Just consider a simple example like Bill Gates's shares in Microsoft. On paper he can value them based on the current share price. But if he actually tried to sell them all at that price, he probably couldn't, because there wouldn't be enough buyers at any one time. If he were really desperate for the cash, he'd probably have to lower his selling price significantly to get more buyers into the market for them.

And that's for something where there's a public market that sets prices. When you get into real estate, which is Trump's main business, it gets much trickier. How can you know how much a Trump casino will sell for until you actually try to sell it?

There are several very commonly accepted ways to value real estate in for financial statements or tax statements. I agree none are perfect but they do offer a reasonable start to answer the question. As usual i think the problem is more in understanding the question, the limits and parameters of the question rather than the answer.

Please allow me to use a real world example when it comes to a question: I am looking to buy a laptop this next week, what laptop should I buy?

[blackshoe]

 PassedOut, on 2016-May-16, 10:07, said:

Two trials, the first 11-1 for acquittal, the second 12-0 for acquittal. A huge waste of the time I wanted to spend studying and playing bridge!

Not to mention our (US taxpayers) money.

[Winstonm]

This, from the article I linked to above, makes me rethink my entire thinking process about Trump supporters. There is also new study that indicates that people with anxiety disorders have brains that are hard-wired in a certain way. Perhaps when the anxiety levels get too high something similar kicks in for the authoritarian personality type?

Quote

Feldman developed what has since become widely accepted as the definitive measurement of authoritarianism: four simple questions that appear to ask about parenting but are in fact designed to reveal how highly the respondent values hierarchy, order, and conformity over other values.

Please tell me which one you think is more important for a child to have: independence or respect for elders?

Please tell me which one you think is more important for a child to have: obedience or self-reliance?

Please tell me which one you think is more important for a child to have: to be considerate or to be well-behaved?

Please tell me which one you think is more important for a child to have: curiosity or good manners?


Feldman's test proved to be very reliable. There was now a way to identify people who fit the authoritarian profile, by prizing order and conformity, for example, and desiring the imposition of those values. In 1992, Feldman convinced the National Election Study, a large survey of American voters conducted in each national election year, to include his four authoritarianism questions. Ever since, political scientists who study authoritarianism have accumulated a wealth of data on who exhibits those tendencies and on how they align with everything from demographic profiles to policy preferences.

[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2016-May-25, 10:11, said:

This, from the article I linked to above, makes me rethink my entire thinking process about Trump supporters. There is also new study that indicates that people with anxiety disorders have brains that are hard-wired in a certain way. Perhaps when the anxiety levels get too high something similar kicks in for the authoritarian personality type?

I have been gone but I will read it. Warning: I don't much trust social scientists.

But one of my fond family memories: I was expressing a favorable view of a certain five year old that many found unbearable. My youngest, about 12, said "You like ...???". The oldest, six years older, chimed in "You have to understand our father. He likes brats". And yes, indeed I do.