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Maybe a dumb question ...

#1 User is online   Cascade 

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Posted 2015-July-11, 17:18

1♣ (P) P (X)
P (1♦) 1Maj ...

Does 1Maj deliver four or five cards? In the analogous auction 1♣ (1♦) 1Maj often delivers only four (absent the modern science of transfers). Is this the same or different?
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#2 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2015-July-11, 18:45

Surely the only point of bidding here is to compete. When we bid directly over 1♣ (1♦) we're showing values in a way that might be difficult if we had to find a different bid on eg 44(23), (43)33, (24)43 etc. Here we have no need/ability to show values, and on those shapes we're happy to pass and let P back in if 1♦ is passed around to him.
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#3 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-July-11, 19:55

I can't follow the auction. Parens usually show bids by the other side, and are not often next to each other.

I have the first round, but who did what on the next?
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#4 User is online   Cascade 

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Posted 2015-July-11, 23:26

View Postaguahombre, on 2015-July-11, 19:55, said:

I can't follow the auction. Parens usually show bids by the other side, and are not often next to each other.

I have the first round, but who did what on the next?


Thanks fixed
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#5 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-July-12, 01:22

Actually a good question, about something at the 1-level I have never done. If an opponent did this, I would guess five hearts and four clubs.
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#6 User is online   Cascade 

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Posted 2015-July-12, 02:46

View Postaguahombre, on 2015-July-12, 01:22, said:

Actually a good question, about something at the 1-level I have never done. If an opponent did this, I would guess five hearts and four clubs.


I was wondering about the possibility of a four-card major and support for the minor being enough.

At the table I assumed five but when going through the hands afterwards I wondered whether four was enough.
Wayne Burrows

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dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

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Posted 2015-July-12, 03:20

I am not sure if a four card hearts is so interesting to show here even if you show clubs at the same time. Besides, an impossible 1nt usually shows the lower suits. Lead directing maybe. But a hand the couldn't respond can barely have a suit good enough for a lead director.
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-July-12, 09:44

View Posthelene_t, on 2015-July-12, 03:20, said:

I am not sure if a four card hearts is so interesting to show here even if you show clubs at the same time. Besides, an impossible 1nt usually shows the lower suits. Lead directing maybe. But a hand the couldn't respond can barely have a suit good enough for a lead director.

I don't think lead direction is a great idea. Balancing doubler has probably suggested support for the other 3 suits; if we have club support it is unlikely his intent was to rebid NT (If it was I don't want to discourage him by showing inferential club length), and no matter which of them will be declarer it would just pinpoint cards for them.

But, like I said, I have never bid 1♥ in this scenario and don't expect to in the future. OP's guess of 5 hearts is any good as any.
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#9 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2015-July-12, 15:50

1H got to show 5 here. If you have only 4H you need a club tolerance & with 4H and a club tolerance its better to double anyway. Doubling is normal even with short spades if you have 4M+some clubs.
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Posted 2015-July-12, 18:24

View PostCascade, on 2015-July-11, 17:18, said:

Is this the same or different?


One is forcing, the other is not. The forcing has 4+, the non forcing has 5+
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