Responders rebids after a red suit transfer Trying to understand some previous threads
#1
Posted 2014-November-30, 07:58
I don't fully understand what people are proposing for openers rebids. I have highlighted the bits that are confusing the hell out of me in bold.
1N-2C-2red-2S: is now 5 spades, Invitational (you lose the 5-4 invitational option)
1N-2D!-2H:
2S: Invitational with 5 hearts, balanced.
2N: 4+ ♣s (3C is then fit showing)
3C: 4+ ♦s (3D is then fit showing)
3D: Invitational or slam try with 6+ ♥s
3H: Invitational with 5/5 majors (am I getting this right?)
3S: Choice of games gadget
3N: Choice of games gadget
(where does the 3S as a self splinter go? I guess transfer instead?)
Then after 1N-2H!-2S:
2N: 4+ clubs
3C: 4+ diamonds
3D: 4+ Hearts??
3H: 5/5 GF???
3S: Invitational with 6+ spades
3N: Choice of games
I'm pretty sure I'm misunderstanding the spades response structure. Mgeotze's post state that 3D is the 5/5 GF option, but that doesn't make any sense. Can anyone tell me what is going on or have I missed something completely obvious.
#2
Posted 2014-November-30, 09:45
I could offer you one set of continuations (e.g. the ones I play) but even then they only really work when you combine them with the rest of the NT system. For example, we like to show major-minor canapés rather than be murky about responder's suit lengths. That means we include a gadget to do that. Also, you can decide whether to include "garbage" stayman in the 2C response, this affects what you do with your 5-card invites. We like to play in 2M when responder has a 5-card invite, but that has meant we give up on responding 2C with very weak hands. If you are prepared to do that, all your 4- or 5-card invites start with 2C and that makes the transfers either weak, game forcing, or 6 cards
Anyway, in order to be helpful, here's an adjusted version of what you just wrote that is more consistent between the majors and hence a bit more memorable.
1NT - 2C - 2red - 2S = invitational with 5 spades. (with 5 spades and 4 hearts you would raise hearts if partner bid 2H over stayman)
1NT-2C-2D-2H = weak with both majors
1NT-2D-2H-
...2S = invitational with 5 hearts, might have 4 spades (you can also put some slam tries in here if you want). Opener distinguishes between major suit lengths if accepting
...2NT/3C = 4+ cards in the next suit up, FG
...3D = 6 hearts, FG (either slam try or COG)
...3H = nat inv
...3S/4m = auto splinter
1NT-2H-2S-
...2NT/3C/3D = 4+ cards in the next suit up, FG
...3H = 6 spades, FG
...3S = nat INV
others obvious
1NT-2C-2D-
...3D = 5/5 majors FG
...3H = 5/5 majors INV
...3S = 4 spades, 5 hearts FG (Smolen)
This means you might play in 2NT with a 4-4 spade fit, but everything else works. However, if previously you were using 1NT-2C-2D-3D to show a 4-card major and a 5-card minor, FG, you need to fit that in somewhere else. Nothing comes free, and hence the comment that you can never show only part of a complex 1NT system, it all has to fit together.
#3
Posted 2014-November-30, 11:09
1NT - 2♦ = 5+♥ (any) or 4♥-6+m with GF values
1NT - 2♦ - 2♥:
... 2♠ = 5+♥ exactly invitational
------ 2NT = min 2♥ (now pass/3m/3♥ all to play; 3m will be 5/5 hand and 3♥=6+♥)
------ 3♣ = max 2♥ (now pass/3♦/3♥ are NF with under-value shapely invites)
------ 3♦ = "good" minimum with 3+♥
------ 3♥ = "bad" minimum with 3+♥
------ 3♠ = 3433 max, choice of game
------ 3NT = (4333) max with 3!h, choice of game
------ 4♥ = max 3+♥ not 4333
... 2NT = 4+♣ GF
------ 3♣ = relay
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♦ = 5+♣ and 4-5♥, same as 3♦ below (but with clubs)
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♥+ = 5+♥, 4♣; same as rebids after 3♣-3♦ below
... 3♣ = 4♦ exactly, GF
------ 3♦ = relay
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♥ = high (spade) shortage; 1543
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♠ = low (club) shortage; 3541
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3NT = no shortage (2542) not slam interested
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♣ = high (spade) shortage with 6+♥; typical 1642
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♦ = low (club) shortage with 6+♥; typical 2641
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♥(+) = slammish 2542
... 3♦ = 5+♦ and 4-5♥, GF
------ 3♥ = relay; usually exactly 3♥
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♠ = 5♥, sets trumps
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3NT = 4♥ only with 6+♦, NF
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4m = 4♥ and 6+♦, slammish
------ 3♠ = 4+♥, sets trumps
------ 3NT = suggestion to play, stuff in the blacks
------ 4m = agrees ♦, 2♥ and weak in at least one black suit
... 3♥ = 5+♥ and 5+♠, exactly INV
... 3♠ = 6+♥ slam try (asking cuebids)
... 3NT = choice of games
... 4m = 6+♥ splinter
... 4♥ = 6+♥ spade splinter (NF)
We play very similar stuff over 1NT-2♥ except that there are no invites (invite with 5+♠ starts with 2♣ so we can get out at the two level) and that 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥ is GF with 5/5 majors (invite with both majors starts 2♦). Invitational or better hands with 5+/4 majors always start with 2♣.
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#4
Posted 2014-November-30, 23:08
FrancesHinden, on 2014-November-30, 09:45, said:
Yes, I was mostly focused on Mgoetze's description of 'Expert Standard' here:
Quote
And Jlall's subsequent discussion of Meckwell's style, which I thought was very interesting. I'm red hot to remove the invitational spade hands into stayman, and I'm attracted to removing the invites in hearts. Garbage stayman is not a frequent bid so confining it only to 3 suited options is fine.
Quote
This is much appreciated. I like the approach of the 5 card invite stopping in 2S (and stopping in 2H has appeal as well) - and I suspect partner will too (we like playing methods generally that let us stop at the 2 level in an 8 card fit wherever possible). I guess you can still play garbage stayman, just it has to be 3 suited not both majors two suited, which is fine.
Quote
This means you might play in 2NT with a 4-4 spade fit, but everything else works. However, if previously you were using 1NT-2C-2D-3D to show a 4-card major and a 5-card minor, FG, you need to fit that in somewhere else. Nothing comes free, and hence the comment that you can never show only part of a complex 1NT system, it all has to fit together.
Yeah, that is tricky. I was hoping to keep stayman relatively 'standard' which means the rebids after a transfer may just have to become more complex. If I elect to not play garbage stayman, so 1N-2C-2D-2H is an invite with 5 that has a lot to recommend itself - what's your gadget for the canape major/minor hands? I looked at transfers after stayman but that doesn't work.
Quote
Cheers - how does including the 4H 6+m hands in the transfer handle when partner makes super accepts?
#5
Posted 2014-December-01, 00:44
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#6
Posted 2014-December-02, 16:05
Cthulhu D, on 2014-November-30, 07:58, said:
3C: 4+ diamonds
3D: 4+ Hearts??
3H: 5/5 GF???
3S: Invitational with 6+ spades
3N: Choice of games
I put all 5-4 major hands through Stayman, all the other bids move up one:
3♦ 5-5 GF
3♥ 6 spade invite
3♠ COG
3NT COG
-- Bertrand Russell
#7
Posted 2014-December-02, 21:51
mgoetze, on 2014-December-02, 16:05, said:
3♦ 5-5 GF
3♥ 6 spade invite
3♠ COG
3NT COG
Yeah, realising that was a major headdesk moment. I see how it works now - except I don't get what are you doing with 4 spades 5 hearts and an invite? Or does that go through stayman as well?
I'm guessing after 1N-2H!-2S:
2N: 4+ clubs
3C: 4+ diamonds
3D: 5/5 GF
3H: Invitational or slam try with 6.
3S: CoG Gadget
3N: CoG Gadget
Then Stayman goes:
1N-2C-2D:
2H: Invite with 5
2S: Invite with 5
2N: Invite balanced with a 4 cM
3H: 5 S, 4H GF
3S: 5H 4S GF
#8
Posted 2014-December-03, 08:19
-- Bertrand Russell
#9
Posted 2014-December-08, 18:33
FrancesHinden, on 2014-November-30, 09:45, said:
OK I finally nailed partner down (plane trip together lol) so we could work through some of the outstanding discussion items.
Partner's expressed preferences - we're not going with 2N as puppet stayman, and we probably prefer putting the hearts invites though 1N-2D because we're not confident in our ability to land on our feet after 1N-2C-2S with 5 hearts (or, atleast, 3H as a spade raise is more valuable).
I like your suggestion of putting the 5/5 hands through stayman, but I think we need them for the minor Canape hands (I ran AWM's approach of 4M6m hands going through the transfer but partner is not a fan).
So that leaves us with:
1N: 2C: Promissary Stayman for all invites with 5 spades, 5/4 majors and 4M5m hands 2D: Hearts, after acceptance 2S is invitational with or without 4S, 2N/3C transfers 2H: Spades, after acceptance 2N/3C transfers 2S: Range Ask or Clubs 2N: Diamonds 3C: Puppet Stayman 3D: 5/5 Minors 3H: 3=1=(45) 3S: 1=3=(54) 3N: To play 4C: GERBER (can probably be set on fire) 4D: Hearts 4H: Spades 4S: Quantative invite, min 4N: Quant, Max.
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