[eagles123]

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anyone finding 7c here?

Eagles

[Cyberyeti]

This is tricky:

1♠-1N(NF)
3♣-4♣
4♦(KC)-4♠(1)
4N(Q♣?)-5N(yes and something that isn't a side K that you might be interested in)
7♣(must be Q♠ then)

Although particularly at MPs I can easily believe 3♠ instead of 4♣ and now I don't think you can get back into clubs playing what I play.

[wank]

well it's a good hand for acol (yes, some exist).

1s-2c-3h-4s-4nt(ideally 6-ace as you've shown a double fit) etc

[Jinksy]

Good one for Fantunes, too. Same start as wank's, though I wouldn't know what 4♠ meant or expect my partner to 'know' it the same as me if I did (I'd also be worried as E that W might have 3433, so I'd like to keep it clear that ♣s are the agreed suit). Once we check on keycards, we play E's 6♠ as 'bid up with one of the top three honours in the suit'.

[kenrexford]

I have a tool from my cue bidding book which makes this trivial. After a simple start of a 1S opening and 2S raise, Opener bids 3C as a natural game or slam try. Now the trick. Responder bids 3NT accepting. 3NT by Responder artificially agrees game while also showing 4-card support for Opener's second suit.

Opener can now bid 4C. No matter what suit Opener shows (and Responder also supports), 4C as one up over 3NT agrees that second suit, shows slam interest, and asks for more information about controls/keys. Finding 7d is trivial from there.

[Fluffy]

I woudl find it with strong club if they don't overcall hearts, west's shape is know at 3♠ then 4♦ = 1 keycard in clubs, 4♠ = ♣Q with no ♦K, and ♠Q is asked in 2 steps just with 5NT, 1 level higher and I would be unable since the asking would be already over 6♣. Why do forum problems always end up with the exact number of steps and real problems end up 1 level too high?

The problem is that with ♠Q missing it is a 5/7 hand so perhaps you shouldn't even ask for it?.

I mean, once I know partner has ♠xxx ♥Axx ♦xxx ♣Qxxx and something else that is not ♦K blasting 7♣ might be the best shot specially when thye don't have a clue what to lead.

The full asking bidding if you wonder:

Spoiler

pass-1♣
1NT-2♣ (Balanced, relay)
2NT-3♣ (minimum with no major nor 5 card minor, relay)
3♠-4♣ (3334, keycard asing in clubs)
4♦-4♥ (1 keycard. ♣Q?)
4♠-5♥ (yes, but no ♦K. Ok, what about ♠K?)
5♠-5NT (no ♠K, I knew, but I wanted to know about ♠Q)
6♦-7♣ (yes, but I don't have ♠J)

[gnasher]

 kenrexford, on 2014-October-18, 05:00, said:

I have a tool from my cue bidding book which makes this trivial. After a simple start of a 1S opening and 2S raise, Opener bids 3C as a natural game or slam try. Now the trick. Responder bids 3NT accepting. 3NT by Responder artificially agrees game while also showing 4-card support for Opener's second suit.

That seems like a rather expensive toy, given that most of the time opener has a game-try rather than a slam try. After 1♠-2♠;3♣-3NT;4♠, the hand on lead knows that there are probably no ruffs in dummy, and probably no discards on a long suit from dummy. With club length and a likely entry elsewhere, he knows to lead a club and arrange a ruff. With ♣Axx, he knows to lead a low club.

[kenrexford]

 gnasher, on 2014-October-18, 06:27, said:

That seems like a rather expensive toy, given that most of the time opener has a game-try rather than a slam try. After 1♠-2♠;3♣-3NT;4♠, the hand on lead knows that there are probably no ruffs in dummy, and probably no discards on a long suit from dummy. With club length and a likely entry elsewhere, he knows to lead a club and arrange a ruff. With ♣Axx, he knows to lead a low club.

Sure, it could help the defense. But, slam makes with that type of layout with about 28 combined HCP. Win somw, lose some. I win this one.

[cherdano]

I have a similar toy as Ken. After 1S-2S-3C, I use...FOUR CLUBS to show a game acceptance with club support. I also play the gadget of bidding 3NT with a maximum and strong holdings in the red suits.

[PhantomSac]

 cherdano, on 2014-October-18, 16:21, said:

I have a similar toy as Ken. After 1S-2S-3C, I use...FOUR CLUBS to show a game acceptance with club support. I also play the gadget of bidding 3NT with a maximum and strong holdings in the red suits.

loled.

You still probably need 6KC blackwood to reach 7 since you need to find out about both queens.

[kenrexford]

 cherdano, on 2014-October-18, 16:21, said:

I have a similar toy as Ken. After 1S-2S-3C, I use...FOUR CLUBS to show a game acceptance with club support. I also play the gadget of bidding 3NT with a maximum and strong holdings in the red suits.

There actually is a reason to use 3NT which is not silly.

First, Opener never bids a new suit game/slam try unless slammish or very suit oriented, opting for 2NT as a general game try with most hands. So, 3NT is never to play.

Second, and most importantly when the second suit is hearts, 3NT saves space when slam oriented. Even 4C agreeing clubs loses what is a valuable step.

Third, again most important when hearts secondary (I tend to be consistent with structure), 3NT as a power raise allows 4 of the suit as non-power. Thus, after spades agreed and then hearts mentioned by Opener, 3NT is a power heart raise but 4H a weaker choice bid.

[Cascade]

No chance of getting to clubs after 1♠ 2♠ for me. I don't think a 3334 hand with some soft cards is worth an upgrade to a 2♣ response.

[mike777]

perhaps:

1s=2s
3c=4c
4d?=4s
4nt=6c
6d?=7c

2s=constructive(roughly 8-11 and 3 card support)
3c=long suit game try
4d=rkc in clubs
4s=1-4
4nt=qclub ask
6c=qc deny outside kings.
6d=?grand try
7c=I got the qs I Hope that is enough.


not sure 4d should be kickback for clubs here though so this feels pretty double dummy.

[codger]

In Bidding Naturally (Batsford, 1979), Joe Amsbury gives a very similar pair of hands:

♠ 1084
♥ J93
♦ AQ3
♣ QJ84

♠ A
♥ AKQ1087
♦ 84
♣ AK103

Back in the day strong-twos ruled, at least in Amsbury's world, and he bid 2♥ - 3♥; 5♣ - 5♠; 5NT - 7♣; with the only annotation, "All quite smooth".

I had the memory which now appears to be false, that he credited this sequence to the Sharples brothers but though I have the book, I can't find that.

[mikeh]

This is a classic bbf thread

Both hands are known and, guess what, lots of players claim that they would have no trouble at all reaching grand.

BBF attracts a lot of players who bid extremely well when they know both hands.

[kenrexford]

 mikeh, on 2014-October-19, 10:50, said:

This is a classic bbf thread

Both hands are known and, guess what, lots of players claim that they would have no trouble at all reaching grand.

BBF attracts a lot of players who bid extremely well when they know both hands.

I don't understand why this is a tricky hand, susceptible to creative double dummy bidding. Responder simply raises each suit. Opener takes it from there.

I mean, I prefer my own personal method. But, using simple bridge, 2S and then 4C is an easy way to get to slam, and Opener only needs 3 toes.

[Jinksy]

I hadn't thought about this until now, but one of my regular Ps thought the E hand was worth a 2♣ opening on the grounds that a) it has more quick tricks than losers (one of his heuristics), and b) it's easy to construct hands that would pass 1♠ and make 4 - xxx xxxx xxx QJx, for eg.

I'm notoriously conservative when it comes to 2♣ openers, so thought I'd forward the question straight here - how far (if at all) from a 2♣ opener do you consider E's hand?

[Cyberyeti]

 Jinksy, on 2014-October-21, 02:54, said:

I hadn't thought about this until now, but one of my regular Ps thought the E hand was worth a 2♣ opening on the grounds that a) it has more quick tricks than losers (one of his heuristics), and b) it's easy to construct hands that would pass 1♠ and make 4 - xxx xxxx xxx QJx, for eg.

I'm notoriously conservative when it comes to 2♣ openers, so thought I'd forward the question straight here - how far (if at all) from a 2♣ opener do you consider E's hand?

Quite a long way, for light 2♣ openings, I like a suit I know I can play in. You are very vulnerable to preemption with this sort of hand, and likely to be taking a complete guess as to which suit to play in if the auction is at the 5 level when it gets back to you.

[kenrexford]

2C opening sucks because of the parallel to the high reverse problem. You likely have an easy first rebid, but any red suit call preempts clubs.

That said, the high reverse problem will often emerge anyway in some form. If the auction is 2/1, you cannot show strength well. If 1NT, 3C is often artificial.

The one upside to the one-level opening is that the raise makes club bids real.

[Lovera]

East has an hand valutated in 19 points (and with 3 Aces and 2 Kings i wonder myself if doesn't think to slam) After 1♠ West 2♣ tells double fit and 12 (almost) points and all is easy.