[whereagles]

just curious.. they always seem to play the lowest card... it's very rare to see even the simplest hi-low encourage signal.. not even with HHxxx or something lol

[diana_eva]

whereagles, on 2014-July-23, 14:11, said:

just curious.. they always seem to play the lowest card... it's very rare to see even the simplest hi-low encourage signal.. not even with HHxxx or something lol

Been there many years. In a 1st stage I didn't encourage because I didn't know how to. In a 2nd stage i didn't encourage because I didn't know what pd will understand of it. Somehow I was convinced count should be shown before preference. It took a very long time for me personally to start trusting partner and do "the right thing" without worrying whether pd will understand it or not.

In short: ignorance.

[akwoo]

The majority of BBO players have never learned about defensive signaling.

Many BBO players (though not a majority) do not even know any system of leads.

[biggerclub]

They are playing UDCA and wondering why you keep switching?

[helene_t]

akwoo, on 2014-July-23, 18:59, said:

The majority of BBO players have never learned about defensive signaling.

Many BBO players (though not a majority) do not even know any system of leads.

This surprises me. I learned standard attitude and count, and standard leads, while playing various simple cardgames before I was old enough (10 years) to learn bridge. I have met club players who don't give count (Netherlands) or don't give attitude (England, where many good players prefer count in almost all situations). But I don't think I have ever met anyone who doesn't play any carding at all. Even if playing kitchen bridge, people may not know stayman and they may not know that an overcall is something different than an opening, but they will know some kind of carding.

More likely, people can't be bothered because they don't know if p expects count or attitude in this situation, if p plays std or udca, or if p went for coffee refill after having made the opening lead so that he won't see your play to the first trick.

[rhm]

Many write what Blackwood they play but not how they signal.

In my experience one third can not signal,
One third signal like they do in their private partnerships and what the rest does escapes me completely since I do not know that they belong to the rest.
It would be very useful if BBO management would set up a default signalling agreement if no signalling agreements have been made.
4th best and top of a sequence leads and high low is either encouraging or even seems simple enough.
It could pop up for a couple of seconds whenever a new pairing starts to play.

Rainer Herrmann

[barmar]

rhm, on 2014-July-24, 04:02, said:

It would be very useful if BBO management would set up a default signalling agreement if no signalling agreements have been made.
4th best and top of a sequence leads and high low is either encouraging or even seems simple enough.
It could pop up for a couple of seconds whenever a new pairing starts to play.

We don't pop up any other partnership agreements, why should this be any different? It's not our job to tell people how to play bridge.

If someone doesn't have UDCA in their profile, it's reasonable to assume standard signals.

[StevenG]

helene_t, on 2014-July-24, 02:27, said:

But I don't think I have ever met anyone who doesn't play any carding at all. Even if playing kitchen bridge, people may not know stayman and they may not know that an overcall is something different than an opening, but they will know some kind of carding.

My experience is different. When I play in non-affiliated clubs, I find that the majority of the weaker players have no carding, and, when playing low, just play the lowest card, whatever. This includes people I've known for almost 20 years.

[akwoo]

I believe I have posted this story before, but I can't remember where.

I pick up a partner at the partnership desk for a 2 session pairs at an ACBL regional.

A few hands in, the opponents are in 4 of a major. Partner leads the A♦, followed by the Q♦. Having started with KJTxx♦, and dummy having started with xxx♦ and 3 small trump, I overtake with the K♦. (There is no other suit I want led through dummy.) I cash the J♦, partner showing out, after which I lead a fourth diamond, partner ruffing high enough for down 1.

Partner (who if I remember correctly was close to making Life Master) is genuinely surprised that someone he picks up at the partnership desk would know to overtake the Q♦ with the K♦ in that situation.

In other words, he is surprised I can count to 13.

I think that tells you the general standard of bridge, even among tournament players, in the US.

If partner can't or won't count to 13, count signals or leads giving count won't do anything for your partnership, and, if anything, give information to declarer. A lot of players simply don't want to put the mental effort into understanding partner's signals. A lot of players have never played with anyone who wants to put in that effort, and so have never had any incentive to learn proper leads or signals.

[helene_t]

Yes I agree with that. Actually, the first few years after I started playing duplicate I found that I could make better use of the count signals as declarer than as defender

[Antrax]

akwoo, on 2014-July-28, 01:06, said:

In other words, he is surprised I can count to 13.

No, he's surprised you pay attention at the table and think one trick ahead. Maybe still unfortunate, but not as dire as you paint it. Lazy players would just think "well, his Q will hold the trick" and play low.

[1eyedjack]

Tip o' th' hat to the player for finding the lead of AQ from doubleton. Maybe the auction suggested it.

Anyway, in pickup partnerships at least, I think that the main reason that player's don't signal on BBO is not because they are unaware of the opportunity or appropriateness, but rather that they cannot believe that their partner will notice the signal, so why give declarer the benefit of it?

[akwoo]

1eyedjack, on 2014-July-28, 11:44, said:

Tip o' th' hat to the player for finding the lead of AQ from doubleton. Maybe the auction suggested it.

I'm thinking that I must have overcalled 2♦ early, because I don't remember thinking the lead was crazy. However, I don't know what that overcall was on, as I'm sure we didn't get a 5th trick. I am prone to undisciplined overcalls though, and was even more prone to them 5 years ago.

[rhm]

barmar, on 2014-July-24, 11:34, said:

If someone doesn't have UDCA in their profile, it's reasonable to assume standard signals.

Are you playing yourself on BBO with unknown partners?
I can assure you this is anything but reasonable.
If you would claim it is reasonable to assume they play up the line irrespective of their holding and the situation you would be much closer.

Rainer Herrmann

[billw55]

helene_t, on 2014-July-24, 02:27, said:

More likely, people can't be bothered because they don't know if p expects count or attitude in this situation, if p plays std or udca, or if p went for coffee refill after having made the opening lead so that he won't see your play to the first trick.

1eyedjack, on 2014-July-28, 11:44, said:

Anyway, in pickup partnerships at least, I think that the main reason that player's don't signal on BBO is not because they are unaware of the opportunity or appropriateness, but rather that they cannot believe that their partner will notice the signal, so why give declarer the benefit of it?

I really think you are giving them too much credit. IMO for BBO randoms, considering how partner might perceive his card is a level or three above what they are thinking. I am sure what you say happens sometimes, but I really think that most of the time they either haven't the first clue, or just aren't paying attention. Also, why should they think that declarer is any more likely to understand a signal than partner is?

[barmar]

rhm, on 2014-July-29, 01:17, said:

Are you playing yourself on BBO with unknown partners?
I can assure you this is anything but reasonable.
If you would claim it is reasonable to assume they play up the line irrespective of their holding and the situation you would be much closer.

Rainer Herrmann

My post was in response to a suggestion that BBO pop up a message saying what the default signaling method is. In that context, I meant that it's reasonable to assume that IF they signal, they use standard signals, rather than UDCA. If they don't signal, it doesn't matter what the default system is, because they're not using it. So the popup is not needed.