[lycier]

---

GIB can't show 4441 shape after 1nt opening,it need to improve on GIB bidding CC.

[1eyedjack]

You have to look at it from BBO perspective: They have to program GIB with a single system that will appeal to a wide audience. Most of the audience do not have methods to show this hand even with their regular human partners. Those who do will employ a wide variety of methods few of which are compatible with each other or with the general 1N structure imposed on them by GIB. These restrictions impose a limit to the sophistication that can be coded into GIB system arrangements without risking the customer base

It is therefore a balancing act, and maybe you are right in this instance, but it is a close call.

[broze]

What are common methods to solve this problem?

[lycier]

 broze, on 2014-March-23, 07:37, said:

What are common methods to solve this problem?

The first method:
1nt -- 2n t(transfer to 3♣)
3♣ -- 3M=4441,3nt=1444,♣ singleton

The second method:
1nt -- 3M =4441,another major is 4 card.
this is a GIB CC,but I can't confirm it must be exact 4441 pattern.

[Antrax]

For GIB 1NT-3M shows 1345 hand with minors 4-5 either way.

[helene_t]

 lycier, on 2014-March-23, 09:30, said:

The first method:
1nt -- 2n t(transfer to 3♣)
3♣ -- 3M=4441,3nt=1444,♣ singleton

No, that shows long clubs and a singleton in the suit bid.

[steve2005]

according to gib's CC (but there are things on it that have changed but not been updated) it allocates 3 bids (3♦/3♥/3♠) to 4441 but cant show the singleton club. These are very rare. Allocating 3 bids is overkill imho. but lots of people use something to show 4441 hands when it comes up they do well.

More standard is 3♥/3♠ to show 54 in minors (sometimes 6-4) and 3-1 in majors. I think GIB uses 2♠ MSS for such hands.

[georgi]

2♦ looks mysterious for opps too.

Imagine EW have switched cards and ♣Kxx is on lead. By showing such distribution in dummy would hint leader too.

Not always you will find KJ1098 or AJ109x on lead. And exposing opener's hand where you don't have slam idea and 4-3 max fit in majors would help more likely defense then declarer.

Even if partner stops the singleton minor with KQx what makes 3NT safer then 5minor or 4-3 major contract?

At the moment 2M over 2♦ is invitational Smolen showing 5-4 in majors, so cannot be used for secondary Stayman for re-distributional inquiry.

[steve2005]

Chip Martel uses 1N-3♦ as 4-4 in majors 4-1 in minors, I presume they can bid 3♥ to find the singleton.

With 3♥/3♠ 4441 and singleton in bid suit

[lycier]

 helene_t, on 2014-March-23, 11:03, said:

No, that shows long clubs and a singleton in the suit bid.

No.Please look at this hand :

---

Known that 3♣=transfer to 3♦,shows 6 cards ♦,according to this hand,we can be easier to find Gib CC at below:
After open 1nt:
3♣=transfer to 3♦,6 cards ♦
3♦=4441,♣4-5 cards,♦ S/V
3♥ and 3♠,same as 3♦
2nt--3♣--3nt=4441

[Bbradley62]

Twenty years ago, we played that 2N was a relay to 3♣ showing an unspecified minor (opener bid 3♣ and responder corrected or didn't), leaving 1N-3♣ to fit the pattern of other 3-level responses.

[helene_t]

 lycier, on 2014-April-05, 19:05, said:

No.Please look at this hand

I was commenting on auction starting with 2NT (transfer to clubs). As steve says, GIB has no way to show the singleton clubs.

I suppose you could play 3♦ as showing a singleton in a minor and then opener can ask with 3♥ if he wants to know.

[steve2005]

 lycier, on 2014-April-05, 19:05, said:

2nt--3♣--3nt=4441

from GIB CC Notes (which aren't necessarily up to date)

2NT Minor Suit Transfer (Promises 6+ clubs. Opener must bid 3♣)

• If responder's next bid is 3 of a new suit, he is promising a singleton or void in that suit, but not necessarily slam interest
• Responder's 3NT rebid is a mild slam try (usually balanced).
• Responder's 4NT rebid is RKCB

end GIB Notes

now if you wanted to use 2N-3♣-3N for that purpose go ahead but this is a very rare hand seems a waste of a bid, when you can use 3♦ to show stiff ♣ or ♦

[iandayre]

In the early days of 2/1 (often called Walsh in that era) and continuing in the books of Max Hardy, a 2NT response to 1NT showed a any 4441 game-going hand, or a Club bust. Opener was forced to rebid 3C and responder bid his singleton. If it was C, 3NT was bid if willing to play there, while 4C showed slam values. There were no minor suit transfers, 2S was MSS or a D bust. A single suited forcing minor hand was shown by starting with Stayman, then bidding the minor. This neither showed or denied a 4 card major.

I'm not really as old as this makes me sound :-)