[awm]

Here are our responses to 1♠:

1NT = 8-12 at most two spades or 5-12 at most one spade [if 12, no five-card suit, if 5-9 then not a reasonable six-card red suit]
2♣, 2♦, 2♥ = 12+ points and 4+ suit [in principle 2♣ can be three if 3433 not wanting to bid 1♠-4♠; 2♥ always five-plus; if exactly 12 without fit, all will be 5+ suit]
2♠ = 6-10 support points with 3+♠ [counting shape, so Kxx Qxxx xx xxxx is okay, but AKx Kxxx xx xxxx is not]; some negative inferences from 3♠ bid
2N = 3+♠ unbalanced invite, or 4+♠ GF [11+ points in support]
3♣ = 3+♠ balanced invite; 11-13 support points with no singleton [occasionally abused with singleton honor]
3♦, 3♥ = 0-9 hcp 6+ suit, wide-ranging WJS
3♠ = weak at NV; mixed at V
3N = fit jump with hearts and spades
4♣/4♦ = fit jump; note that standard splinter bids go through 2N here
4♥ = to play; does not create a forcing pass
4♠ = to play; wide range of hands but does not create a forcing pass

Over 1♠-2x we play mostly natural rebids. Some special rules:

1♠-2x-2NT is always a GF and shows either 5♠-332 or 6+♠
1♠-2x-3 non jump is a natural GF (this shows extras except for 1♠-2♥-3♥)
1♠-2x-2♠ is NF and minimum, kind of a catch-all for hands not strong enough to bid at the 3-level and without a suit cheaper to bid
1♠-2♣-2♦ includes very min 5332 hands as well as natural diamond hands
1♠-2x-jumps show 5/5 hands with the second suit being a fit for responder, with various strengths and shortages

In many cases responder has a GF relay available at his second call which allows opener to give further description.

Over 1♠-2N we play:
... 3♣ = very min hand, may not have game (now responder can show shortage and we can still play 3♠ if the hands don't fit well)
... 3♦ = GF but not a hand likely to make slam opposite an unbalanced invite (so we can blast game without revealing too much)
... 3♥ = really good hand asking further description
... 3♠ = really good hand asking cuebids
... 3N = RKC
... 4♣,4♦,4♥ = void-showing
... 4♠ = pretty bad semi-balanced hand with extra spade length

Over 1♠-3♣:
... 3♦ = 4+ hearts, looking for a superior heart fit
... 3♥ = counter-try (usually looking for 4th trump)
... 3♠ = signoff

[straube]

Thanks. I thought it particularly interesting to see how your 1N range differs depending on whether you have a 2-fit or not. Here's a tally for 100 hands. I've changed my 2H to be 9-11 (if bal 3-trump) so slightly beefier and 2N=GF spade 4+ fit and 3C=any LR. I'm thinking of making 3S a good preemptive raise...so somewhere between junk and a mixed raise.

What I've noticed for most of these tallies is that for some reason, the natural 2C bid is fairly under-utilized and I'm not exactly sure why. I think the 1S-2H natural are difficult auctions.

I ran into a problem with giant spade fit hands (thus adding 2N) and am wanting to borrow a chapter from awm here. I particularly like his 1S-3C.

I'm still liking 2C as GF relay and thinking to just GF with 13 if I've no other way of showing an invitational hand.

...........relay..................natural
P...........12......................17
1N..........22......................21
2C..........15.......................8
2D...........8.......................9
2H..........14.......................4
2S..........18......................22
2N...........0.......................1
3C...........5.......................9
3D...........0.......................1
3H...........0.......................1
3S...........2.......................3
other........5.......................5

[akhare]

straube, on 2014-February-18, 16:03, said:

What I've noticed for most of these tallies is that for some reason, the natural 2C bid is fairly under-utilized and I'm not exactly sure why. I think the 1S-2H natural are difficult auctions.

Still curious to find out why you think 1♠ - 2♥ is such a difficult auction. Opener can stall with 2♠, GF with 2N, 3m, make a simple raise with 3♥ and splinter, etc. with 3♠+.

It seems pretty straightforward and less murky than forcing everything via 2♣, right?

[akhare]

straube, on 2014-February-18, 16:03, said:

What I've noticed for most of these tallies is that for some reason, the natural 2C bid is fairly under-utilized and I'm not exactly sure why. I think the 1S-2H natural are difficult auctions.

<Deleted double post>

[straube]

akhare, on 2014-February-19, 12:09, said:

Still curious to find out why you think 1♠ - 2♥ is such a difficult auction. Opener can stall with 2♠, GF with 2N, 3m, make a simple raise with 3♥ and splinter, etc. with 3♠+.

It seems pretty straightforward and less murky than forcing everything via 2♣, right?

I think 1S-2H is widely viewed as a difficult auction. You might bring that auction up with Bill Hardy as I remember he had that thought, too.

We're helped a lot by 1S being a limited hand, but hindered by 2H not being game forcing. If you think about it, 1S-2C as GF relay puts opener at mostly +1 for relays, but 1S-2H (were it GF) would put opener in the position of being +3 (were he to pattern) except that he isn't allowed the use of 2S to pattern (that being the weak stall bid) so he's comparably +4 when he's trying to show his hand. It's a similar argument after 1S-2H, 2S-3C (which I take it is a semi-natural GF). That for me is la la land. +6? Or if opener forces game via 1S-2H, 2N now responder is like +5? I mean, these are all approximations that are helpful for me to understand what is taking place.

If you want to separate out hearts from the artificial 2C relay. I suppose a 2D response could handle GF auctions as well. One could have 1S-2D, 2H-2S be a GF and give up on playing the 5-2 spade fit (not sure it's worth this) and 1S-2D, 2S-anything but pass forcing game, but again not sure it's worth it. I wouldn't want to start this way with slam in mind.

[straube]

One thought is to open 5S332 13 cts 1N (and probably play good 13 to bad 16 anyway as 16s with 11 QPs ought probably be upgrading to 1C). Couple this with 1S-2C promising either GI 4H or any 14+ and then we would only miss the occasional 12 opposite 13 game when opener is 5332 and responder has 13. For this, we avoid going down in many of those 25 point games as well as staying out of 2N not making.

Second idea was to use 1S-2H as CR or LR. I realize their are ethical considerations if opener hesitates too long before rebidding 2S, but these same ethical considerations are at play with transfers that promise GI+ values, etc and are just something to deal with. This would leave 1S-2H and all the Kokish etc game tries.

The other forcing spade raise would be 2N which could be GF and likely with shortness. Or 2N could be a limit raise and 2H could be CR (any) or a GF raise with shortness. That removes most of the ethical considerations and responder can Kokish at his rebid with the GF raise.

So....

1N-semiforcing, 8-13 with doubleton support or 5-13 if short spades
.....2m-4-cd
..........2D-to play
..........2H-light raise of minor
..........2S-8-11
..........2N-12-13
..........raise-12-13
..........3D (over 2C)-10-11
2C-GF relay or invitational 4H
.....2D-5332, 5440, or 4+C
..........2H-GF relay
..........2S-4H and 4C
..........2N-4H
..........3m-4H/6m
.....2H-4+D
..........2N-4H
..........3C-4H/6C
..........3D-4H/4+D
.....2S-SS
..........3m-4H/6m
.....2N-4H, higher or no short
.....3C-4H, low short
.....etc-5H
2D-6H, 5+H if GI
.....2H-bleh
..........2S-2-fit, 5H GI
..........2N-5H, GI
..........3m-5H, GI
..........3H-6H, GI
..........3S-3S, GI
..........3N-likely 15(43) minimum GF
2H-CR or a GF raise with shortness
.....Kokish (opener shows shortness only with 6+ spades to prevent the tap)
2S-up to 8 hcps if balanced
.....Kokish (opener shows shortness only with 6+ spades to prevent the tap)
2N-limit raise
3m-6m, GI
3H-constructive, usually 7 hearts or self-sufficient 6-cd suit
3S-preemptive
3N-FSJ with hearts
4C-FSJ with clubs
4D-FSJ with diamonds

I'd appreciate feedback, even from folks who don't like the basic idea. Thanks

[straube]

Tally for latest...


P......9
1N...23
2C...13
2D...10
2H...16
2S...15
2N.....7
3C.....0
3D.....2
3H.....0
3S.....1
3N.....0
4C.....1
4D.....0
4H.....0
4S.....3

[akhare]

straube, on 2014-February-19, 15:05, said:

I think 1S-2H is widely viewed as a difficult auction. You might bring that auction up with Bill Hardy as I remember he had that thought, too.

We're helped a lot by 1S being a limited hand, but hindered by 2H not being game forcing. If you think about it, 1S-2C as GF relay puts opener at mostly +1 for relays, but 1S-2H (were it GF) would put opener in the position of being +3 (were he to pattern) except that he isn't allowed the use of 2S to pattern (that being the weak stall bid) so he's comparably +4 when he's trying to show his hand.

This has the markings of turning into a religious argument, but let me take a stab at it.

IMO, relays are great when there's good potential for slam (say positive response opposite a strong 1♣ opening). However, while they are still optimal in terms of space utilization over limited openings, there's significantly less incentive to use them *all* the time.

• They reveal too much information about declarer's hand when game is the limit
  
• They may not work well on hands where responder is better off describing the hand (say opener is balanced)
  
• Interference over 1M - 2♣ (any shape) may leave us poorly placed

Note that my main objection is to forcing every GF hand to go via through 2♣. IMO, The 2♣ relay is a great tool, but it's equally important to have other methods to supplement it.

FWIW, my ideal structure would retain 2♣, but would do away with the artificial 2♦ / 2♥ bids (eliminating constructive raises).

straube, on 2014-February-19, 15:05, said:

It's a similar argument after 1S-2H, 2S-3C (which I take it is a semi-natural GF). That for me is la la land. +6? Or if opener forces game via 1S-2H, 2N now responder is like +5? I mean, these are all approximations that are helpful for me to understand what is taking place.

This assumes knowing the exact shape is critical to finding slams. Often times, knowledge of fits and shortness serves the purpose and shape obfuscation may actually be desirable.

[straube]

I think I'm able to do some nice things with this though. I'm able to show 5H/5m and stop in 3m. I'm able to show 4H/6m and stop in 3m. This allows 1S-3m to be invitational without the fear of losing a 4-4 heart fit. In fact, 1S-3m and now opener may rebid 3H (5-cds) or 3S forcing.

I'm uncomfortable with a super-wide range for 1S-2S. Adam likes a wider range than your 7-10 and will not respond 1N as you plan to do for the weaker hands. I would guess he's philosophically against that. In fact I very much admire his use for 1N (5-12 if short the major, 8-12 if doubleton major) which allows 1S-1N, 2L-2S to promise a minimum of 8 hcps. This allows opener to sometimes make a further game try.

So what is your complete structure with your 2C relay? For example, is your 2D and 2H GF or just invitational+? What do you do with your balanced 2434 12 count? Have you tabulated responses?

I mean, you make some remarks I appreciate. It's nice, especially when slam is out of the picture to conceal opener's shape. It's a bit dreadful that opener has already named spades. It would be nice to be able to let responder pattern out, especially opposite a balanced opener. There are costs to these things.

[akhare]

straube, on 2014-February-19, 19:47, said:

So what is your complete structure with your 2C relay? For example, is your 2D and 2H GF or just invitational+? What do you do with your balanced 2434 12 count? Have you tabulated responses?

Here's an outline, but there are two schools of thought here, viz., "Bidding solutions must ideally revolve around relays" and "Natural bidding is best for games" and never shall the twain meet .

1N: Semi-forcing, denies 3+M and < 12 except in rare cases
2♣: Nominally 12+ with 3+♣; could be 2+ ♣ in big balanced hand
2♦: GI+, 5+♦, rarely 4♦, 5♣ with minimum hand and shortness in major
2♥: GI+, 5+♥
2M: 5-10, 3+ raise
2N: 4+M, may include mixed raise when NV
3♣: Balanced LR with 3+M
3♦ / 3♥: TBD, probably GI and not sufficient for 2x when vulnerable and WJS NV
3M: Weak NV, mixed raise vulnerable

The idea behind the 2♣ GI+ relay / response is that minimal GI hands with ♣ can often bail in a reasonable part score if needed. Pathological minimum hands with 5♣ and shortness in the major can decide whether they want to bid 1N / 2♣ / 2♦.

Over 1M - 2♣ (there may be different ways to optimize the below):

2♦: 5M332 or 4+♦. Relay break to 3♣ suggests 6+ minimum with misfit (NF)
2♥: 4+OM. Relay break to 3♣ suggests 6+ minimum misfit (NF)
2♠: 6+ M. Relay break to 3♣ suggests 6+ minimum misfit (NF)
2N: High short, M+♣
3♣: LL, M+♣
3♦: 5M4♣22/5M4♣31 (low short)
3♥: 6M4♣21♦ (low short)

Over 1M - 2N:

3♣: Accepts game, asks for shortness
3♦: Counter try, respond with shortness if accepting
3M: Awful hand
Other: Showing void (high to low)

[straube]

If you want to play natural responses to 1S, I think there is more pressure to make the responses GF as you move from 2C to 2H. Meckwell plays 1S-2m as GF unless the suit is rebid or unless the auction proceeds 1S-2m, 2N in which case opener is assumed to have tolerance for a 6-cd minor such that the suit may run.

They play that 1S-2H is game forcing. I'm not sure responder shows a big 2-suited hand of hearts and clubs after your 1S-2H, 2S. It seems like you have at least a slight problem after 1S-2H, 2S where you might have a 5-3 heart fit but pass it out in a 5-2 spade fit. Or if you play 1S-2H, 3H is mandatory with a 3-fit, then you are too high sometimes.

1S-2C and you can pretty much set yourself up for relays as you've done. In fact, Meckwell use a simple sort. Something like...

1S-2C, 2D (4+D)-
..........2H-relay ask
..........2S-rebidding clubs strongly
..........2N-fit for diamonds, GF
..........3C-rebidding clubs weakly
..........3D-fit for spades, GF
..........3H-5 hearts, 6 clubs

So if you don't mind the additional complexity, you could start with 2C and then revert to a more interactive manner of bidding if you wanted.

1S-2D is a lot more problematic than 1S-2C. I think opener's rebids are...

..........2H-4 hearts
...............2S-relay
..........2S-6 spades
...............2S-judgment ask
..........2N-other
..........3C-diamond fit (usually 4 but could be 5134)
..........3D-5 clubs?
..........3H-6S/4C?
..........3S-6S/5C?
..........3N-7S/4C?

So the 2N rebid has to handle a bit more and you have a few less relays.

Their raise structure is/was different depending on vulnerability. It was...

8-bad 11, vul
4-10 (less than 8 with Qxx trump or better), all white
2-10 (less than 8 with Qxx trump or better), favorable

So in sum, their 2/1s are pretty much GF and only allow for the misfit auctions where responder has a long minor.

I feel that Meckwell (and your structure, too) is quite a bit more complicated than the last one I posted. Meckwell probably handles auctions better when there are lots of trump and RHO is about to preempt. Maybe it hides opener's distribution better, but I think they are actually trying to show opener's distribution as much as possible. I think it doesn't handle raises and GI heart hands as well. Personally, I remember the 2H vs 2S raise being useful, but apparently you found it less so.

[akhare]

straube, on 2014-February-20, 17:37, said:

If you want to play natural responses to 1S, I think there is more pressure to make the responses GF as you move from 2C to 2H

Opener's rebid of the major, raise of responder's suit, and responder's rebid of suit are NF.

straube, on 2014-February-20, 17:37, said:

I feel that Meckwell (and your structure, too) is quite a bit more complicated than the last one I posted. Meckwell probably handles auctions better when there are lots of trump and RHO is about to preempt. Maybe it hides opener's distribution better, but I think they are actually trying to show opener's distribution as much as possible. I think it doesn't handle raises and GI heart hands as well. Personally, I remember the 2H vs 2S raise being useful, but apparently you found it less so.

The 1M - 2♦ / 2♥ auctions are largely natural (basically Adam's structure).

[icer]

Hi...


Atul...your response structure (2/1=invite+) looks a lot like SAYC...
which leads to endless problems...
you guys are too advanced for that


Meckwell play(i think):

1M-2♣= 2+♣ GF
-2♦= (4)5+♦ GF
-2♥ over 1♠ = 5+♥ GF

1♠-2♣
2♦=4+♦(then:relay,rebid,raise lo,raise hi,5H-6C)
2♥=4+♥(then:relay,rebid,raise lo,raise hi,5D-6C)
2♠=6+♠(then:relay,rebid,raise,5D-6C,5H-6C)
2N=5♠(332)(then relay asks for doubleton)
3♣=4+♣ short♥ or 5224(then relay for which)
3♦=4+♣ short♦(then relay for #♠)
3♥=5+♣?
3♠=long good♠
3N+=void splinters


1♠-2♦
2♥=4+♥(then:relay,rebid,raise lo,raise hi,5C-6D)
2♠=6+♠(then:relay,rebid,raise,5C-5C,5H-6D)
2N=5♠(332) or 5♠4♣(then nat. bids)
3♣=4+♦ short♥ or 5242(then relay for which)
3♦=4+♦ short♣(then relay for #♠)
3♥=5+♣
3♠=long good♠
3N+=void splinters


1♠-2♥
2♠=6+♠(then:relay,4+C,4+D,sets S,sets H)
2N=5♠(332) or 5♠4m(then nat. bids)
3♣=5+♣
3♦=5+♦
3♥=3♥
3♠=long good♠
3N=5422
4m=splinters 4+♥

[straube]

Thanks for posting all of that. Do you know, do they still not have a game forcing raise of their major? What are their 2N and higher responses? The last I knew...

2N-LR
3C-6C, natural light invite
3D-6D, natural light invite
3H-6H, natural heavy invite
3S-weak
etc?

[akhare]

icer, on 2014-February-21, 06:37, said:

Atul...your response structure (2/1=invite+) looks a lot like SAYC...
which leads to endless problems...
you guys are too advanced for that

Icer,

Can you elaborate more on "endless problems" in this context? Note that opener is limited to 15 HCPs and both opener and responder can easily establish a cheap GF.

For example, unlike SAYC, the 1♠ - 2♦ (natural) - 2♥ (natural) - 2♠ sequence establishes a GF.

Also, the 2♣ response can be used to relay out opener's complete pattern, with QP ask, DCB, etc. (if desired) and AFAIK, there's nothing SAYC-like about it.

[icer]

re....

Straube...

I think 2N = 4+M limit(or 3M unbal) OR strong raise
(in-between hand just bids game)...

and 3M = mixed raise...but can be weaker when non vuln.


Atul...

I was just joking...im sure you have good methods to solve
the forcing/non-forcing dilemma...