[Jinksy]

I'm going to mount a defence of this X, since I don't think the criticisms are giving the full story. The arguments against:

1) I might help declarer make his contract.
2) They might XX with a good H holding.
3) I might get partner to make a poor lead from such as Ax.

The first is very unlikely against weak opponents, who I suspect won't pay any attention to the bidding at all during the play. What's more, since they play a weak NT, the a priori odds of them bidding game at all opposite a passed hand are slim, so this is most likely to help this with a part score if at all.

The second is possible but rare, and again rarer vs these opps who might not even have the system/confidence about system to deal with it. Look at the actual sequence for (admittedly post-hoc) evidence for this - N pulled S's redouble with three Hs, a ruffing value, and a hand that was about to push for game! Even if it did get XXed to me, I can pull to Ds, which gives me a chance of getting out for less damage than a making game.

The third is probably the most likely, but still pretty unusual - even if P has that, it might be the right lead against either 3N or 4S if he can get into my hand. Most of the time if he leads from a holding he might not otherwise - Kx(x), etc to 4S it won't do any harm, and if it's vs 3N it will be on an invitational auction where he wants a passive lead - which my Hs look much like being.

So I think the purported downsides are minor. The arguments in favour:

1) Pass is lead deterring.
2) They might well be about to fizzle in 2S, and this gives me a chance to offer a 3H competitive bid without actually bidding it.

No-one's even mentioned the first yet. I'm not sure how strong the effect is, but P on lead will note that I have failed to X Hs. Against 3N, that might push him to lead eg a D in preference to a H with HXXXX, DXXX, or worse, Hxxx, DJxx, and so on. Much of the time when a H is the best lead, since I have failed to indicate it, he will fail to find it.

Re the second, if I pass and 2S comes back to me, I won't much like Xing in case P passes, so I suppose I'll bid 2N. If he then bids 2C, well and good, but if bids 3D on such as HKxxx, DJxx, Cxx, or on any holding such that H => D > C, we'll have missed our best spot. Alternatively I could try a unilateral 3H at that point, which seems pretty grim. Or I could try X now which, notwithstanding the XX possibility, seems significantly safer. If P doesn't compete to the three level, it gives me an option to bid 3D when 2S comes back to me. Normally I probably won't, but I might be able to pick up some tells from LHO that his Ss are good enough to be worth competing. Against strong opps I'd think this too risky, but here I doubt they'll be able to judge when to X.

[billw55]

If you are choosing to ignore certain risks because your opponents are bad, ok. But in that case it isn't really a matter for discussion in the expert forum.

As for the lead, you have some points about hearts being led. But you forget also, what partner may not lead when you double. For all you know, he has a perfectly good normal lead, and you are forcing him off it to lead a suit that full of holes.

I know this is resulting a little, but look at the actual deal. Partner will be quite surprised to see declarer play the ♥AK after your double! He might even misdefend the entire hand assuming you have the other honor. Meanwhile, had you ended up defending 3NT, his natural diamond lead looks best.

[Jinksy]

billw55, on 2013-November-21, 07:12, said:

If you are choosing to ignore certain risks because your opponents are bad, ok. But in that case it isn't really a matter for discussion in the expert forum.

Eh? Players of all strengths are allowed to play against poor opposition, and the tactics they use will influence the result.

Quote

But you forget also, what partner may not lead when you double.

I didn't forget it, I specifically discussed it.

Quote

I know this is resulting a little, but look at the actual deal ... had you ended up defending 3NT...

Ok: we did not end up defending 3NT.

[ggwhiz]

Jinksy, on 2013-November-21, 07:52, said:

Eh? Players of all strengths are allowed to play against poor opposition, and the tactics they use will influence the result.

Just my opinion but employing these "tactics" against poor opponents is absolutely horrid.

It usually results in a three against one bidding scenario and in this spectacular example it's six against two. Your teammates.

[ahydra]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-21, 05:19, said:

You keep repeating this but it doesn't make it true. Some people show a good hand, some show a suit they're happy for partner to raise, some double purely for the lead. We will happily double on KQ109x and out and have had some success doubling minors on good 4 card holdings.

The spade holding does matter, if you have a stiff spade, it's much more likely they'll play spades than NT, and that will change the holdings on which you want to double for the lead. For example I might not double with x, QJ9xx, Axx, xxxx but I'd be more likely to with xxx, QJ9xx, Axxx, x.

This is a very good point actually.

Q1098x is surely enough for X (lead-directing), particularly if we have some possible side entries. Partner would probably never lead his doubleton heart through dummy's J, or from his Jxx or Kxx, etc, otherwise. [If you think that Q1098x is bad, my partner once doubled Stayman (for the lead, the way we play) with a void You can see what he was getting at, but unfortunately we ended up defending 3N!]

ahydra

[mcphee]

I saw 2 poor dbles here, the one of 2H and the one of 4S. Many pairs play the re-dble shows a maximum and 3 or more trumps. Even so what did any of these dbles have other than noise?

[quiddity]

Jinksy, on 2013-November-21, 06:58, said:

I'm going to mount a defence of this X, since I don't think the criticisms are giving the full story. The arguments against:

1) I might help declarer make his contract.
2) They might XX with a good H holding.
3) I might get partner to make a poor lead from such as Ax.

Another argument against: your hand can stand leads in the two unbid suits, and your hand is not strong enough to expect to have an entry even if you manage to set up the heart suit.

[billw55]

Jinksy, on 2013-November-21, 07:52, said:

Ok: we did not end up defending 3NT.

True.

As it turns out, the heart lead was also entirely useless against 4♠ - in fact it is cold for 6 on any lead. So, no lead matters against 4♠, but a heart lead would be a big loser against 3NT. Did you know what contract you would be defending when you doubled 2♥?

[ArtK78]

billw55, on 2013-November-21, 13:57, said:

Did you know what contract you would be defending when you doubled 2♥?

I am going to assume that this is a rhetorical question. But I bet he was hoping that the contract would be 2♥x.

[the hog]

Jinsky, it appears that you just like making noise in the auction. The x has no merit. Please don't post this in the expert forum.

[gszes]

I freely admit I do not care for the 2hx. I see little advantage to be gained and can forsee
some horrific consequences to be paid. There are many reason for this.

1. rho is a passed hand so if the opps are going to bid game rho is probably near the top
of ther hand which would mark p with 9-11 hcp. If the opps intnd to stop short of game
that extra power will be present in partner's hand but there is a limit. P did not x the 1n
which they probably would have done with 15+ balanced (although that might not be
possible due to your system constraints).

2. There is no danger the opps will subside in 2s unless you decide to let them. After the
completion of the transfer the bidding would go pass pass and you can now introduce
2n knowing your p probably has something like a balanced opening hand. This approach
(converting a 3c bid by p to 3d) will allow you to get both red suits into the action and not
focusing p attention solely on the somewhat weak heart suit.

3. The danger factor is huge if LHO can xx your 2h x to show a willingness to play 2h.
The opps may be close to making game anyway and they might be more than willing
to play a slightly inferior 2hxx vs bidding a sketchy game it their hands warrant it. Why
give them the opportunity??? Its not like your hearts are anything to write home about
as a lead director if partner is on lead.

4. Someday you will have a hand that actually contains hearts with maybe even game
possibilities and you will want to x but realize the futility of such an action when you
think back to your minimum standard for a 2h x. You will realize that the range for your
x is so huge your poor partner can never have any hope of making a rational decision
on how to proceed,



Since your p already realizes their 4sx was a bad idea no sense discussing it further.
stripe tailed ape sheesh like the opps were ever going to consider a slam with a
passed hand opposite a weak nt-------------------------------------------------------------

[Jinksy]

gszes, on 2013-November-21, 18:01, said:

I freely admit I do not care for the 2hx. I see little advantage to be gained and can forsee
some horrific consequences to be paid. There are many reason for this.

Thanks for posting actual arguments.

Quote

1. rho is a passed hand so if the opps are going to bid game rho is probably near the top
of ther hand which would mark p with 9-11 hcp. If the opps intnd to stop short of game
that extra power will be present in partner's hand but there is a limit. P did not x the 1n
which they probably would have done with 15+ balanced (although that might not be
possible due to your system constraints).

His X would have been pens. Not sure why P's strength should be a deterrent, per se?

Quote

2. There is no danger the opps will subside in 2s unless you decide to let them. After the
completion of the transfer the bidding would go pass pass and you can now introduce
2n knowing your p probably has something like a balanced opening hand. This approach
(converting a 3c bid by p to 3d) will allow you to get both red suits into the action and not
focusing p attention solely on the somewhat weak heart suit.

I figured at these colours I'd rather get one suit in at a low level than 2 in at a higher level.

Quote

3. The danger factor is huge if LHO can xx your 2h x to show a willingness to play 2h.
The opps may be close to making game anyway and they might be more than willing
to play a slightly inferior 2hxx vs bidding a sketchy game it their hands warrant it. Why
give them the opportunity??? Its not like your hearts are anything to write home about
as a lead director if partner is on lead.

Yeah, I agree this is a factor, I just didn't think it likely enough to be a strong deterrent. We're not playing total points, so if other than this it's a positive expectation bid, I doubt this is enough to tip it over. Like I said, I still have the extra chance to pull to 3D if they do XX. Maybe I'm just underestimating the probability of this - but like I said, I had (later) justified reason to doubt these opps would find it even when it was right.

Quote

4. Someday you will have a hand that actually contains hearts with maybe even game
possibilities and you will want to x but realize the futility of such an action when you
think back to your minimum standard for a 2h x. You will realize that the range for your
x is so huge your poor partner can never have any hope of making a rational decision
on how to proceed,

If I'm unpassed, X would be values. When we're both passed hands I don't expect my P to drop me in game without consulting me first - he's got lots of encouraging bids in between here and 3H.

I'm not claiming the X was a good call, only that the arguments that it's a bad one don't are either off target, or an estimation of the likelihood of bad outcomes that seems too generous here - and no-one's posted any sort of counterargument against the arguments in favour of it.

Quote

stripe tailed ape sheesh like the opps were ever going to consider a slam with a
passed hand opposite a weak nt-------------------------------------------------------------

That was le sarcasme.

[Vampyr]

What exactly did the first double mean? Was it purely lead-directing, or did it suggest a sacrifice?

[Jinksy]

Vul on this auction I would assume lead/low level competition only.

[Jinksy]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-20, 06:32, said:

At what point was the explanation of the XX given ? You might have had the possibility of a director call (I only get part of the explanation when I click on the bid, it's too long to see it all).

Totally missed this Q. At the end of the auction, S said it probably should have been alerted since it was agreeing Ss, but N didn't seem to have any idea what it meant (I don't remember at what point we asked him, but it was presumably before that). We didn't think it was worth seeking a ruling for N forgetting the system - I think that's just caveat emptor?

[the hog]

Jinksy, on 2013-November-26, 08:27, said:

Thanks for posting actual arguments.



His X would have been pens. Not sure why P's strength should be a deterrent, per se?



I figured at these colours I'd rather get one suit in at a low level than 2 in at a higher level.



snipped

Which suit was that? The H are not good enough to be called a suit on their own. How would you deal with a xx?

[Fluffy]

South's 4♠ bid is breaking the laws, he noticed lack of alert on 2♥ XX and quickly went to support spades when a club raise is a much more appealing LA once spades have been raised.

Regarding the double of 2♥ the problem is that it acomplishes little, we don't need a heart lead, we like any lead partner makes that is not from nothing. Forcing him to lead a heart when any lead could be just as good is a bad idea. I wouldn't care much about 3NT when I hold singleton spade.

[Jinksy]

Fluffy, on 2013-November-28, 00:25, said:

South's 4♠ bid is breaking the laws, he noticed lack of alert on 2♥ XX and quickly went to support spades when a club raise is a much more appealing LA once spades have been raised.

That never even occurred to me! I really should start being more mercenary at the table...

[lowerline]

If East's double is lead-directing the hearts aren't good enough. If East's double is take-out the hand is too weak.
Without an alert redouble should be a proposal to play there (2Hxx). But if North interpreted it that way he would have passed. Fuzzy enough to call the director.
West only has a penalty double if East's double was take-out and if it was matchpoints.

Steven