[quiddity]

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This auction came up in the I/A forum. Is 5♣ mostly invitational, or mostly strain-seeking? How should North respond with (for example) 3-4 in the majors and the two red aces - 5♥, 6♥, or something else?

If it's invitational, how should South bid with a strong 4351 to bring diamonds into the picture?
If it's strain-seeing, how should South bid with an invitational hand and 3-4 or 4-3 in the majors?
If South bids 5NT instead of 5♣, how many diamonds should North have to offer 6♦?
If South bids 6♣ instead of 5♣, is that strain-seeking or invitational or asking for a cuebid?

[JLOGIC]

You didn't ask but I think also interesting is what is 4N, I would think logically that would be a slam try in diamonds since 4D is NF and 5D is not a slam try, though I guess you could argue hands with a slam try in a major might also fit in there (say, 5M direct denies a club control, 4N then 5M shows a club ontrol). It's hard to imagine a slam try in a major without a club control and has only interest in one suit that started with a t/o X but maybe?

As far as 5C, 6C, and 5N, this is probably just be a case of having too many bids but my default in such scenarios is that 5N denies one of the majors and thus obviously has primary diamonds, something like 6 diamonds and a 4 card major might make sense. But it might also depend on what 4N means, if 4N shows diamonds then you can bid 4N then 5M with that hand type much easier so that partner knows what major you want (further evidence that 4N=slam try + with diamonds seems good imo!).

In reality I would expect 5C to be bid with all three suited hands whether slam force or slam invite, it gives you much more room and info to find the right strain. For instance, a 4351 slam force can bid 5C then if partner bids hearts, can bid 5N to basically show that shape. If you start with some kind of 5N or 6C, you have less room. This means partner can not jump to 6M over 5C wtih a 4 card suit, but that is fine, since he started with a responsive X he will have a second place to play anyways. So, going back to my meta rule that 5N involves diamonds, if he has a slam force over 5C with just the majors he would bid 6C. If he had a hand that wanted to involve diamonds he could bid 5N.

As far as 6C, who knows? I guess in theory since I have my 2 suiters covered I would like 6C to be a grand slam try in one suit, and responder responds paradox (6D says he rejects a grand slam try in diamonds, 6H says he accepts diamonds rejects hearts, etc). But again the meaning of 4N comes into play, what is 4N then 6M? Even if 4N showed diamonds, next bidding 6M could revert that. I guess the difference should be one promises first round club control, one denies it. But again, that is all theoretical, I do not know anyone who has actually defined all of these situations and it isn't that useful. The main thing is to define 4N imo, everything else can go logically from there, and to have a general meta agreement about cuebidding vs bidding 5N (I recommend with 3 suits possible 5N is about diamonds, cuebid isn't, and with 2 suits in play the 6 level cuebid shows first round control and the 5N bid denies it).

When you have 4N and 5C available, defining 5N and 6C does not seem that important.

[JLOGIC]

After posting this I realized maybe 4D should be forcing lol, or maybe it should just be some 3352? That is another important issue since if 4D is forcing, 4N could mean something else (like diamonds with 1 major slam try). In general I would play 4D not forcing but it's worth discussing since it changes the meaning of other bids obviously. Not sure if it makes a difference that partner is a passed hand.

[jallerton]

One of the problems with sequences like this is that not many partnerships have discussed whether bids like 4♦ should be forcing. It's not just whether you think the bid is forcing; what will partner think (that you think)? This has a knock-on effect on the meanings of the other bids.

[jogs]

What's the double by North? Is it responsive?
Guaranteeing 4-4 in the majors. If so, South
shouldn't pass the buck back to North. Just
guess and attempt to place the final contract.
North is a passed hand.

[rhm]

quiddity, on 2013-August-06, 11:31, said:

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Is 5♣ mostly invitational, or mostly strain-seeking?

How can a bid voluntarily bypassing game in both majors be "mostly strain-seeking" ???
If you have no agreements use at least the logic of the situation or have an agreement that logic trumps all other considerations.
It may do wonders to your game.

Rainer Herrmann

[quiddity]

rhm, on 2013-August-08, 02:09, said:

How can a bid voluntarily bypassing game in both majors be "mostly strain-seeking" ???
If you have no agreements use at least the logic of the situation or have an agreement that logic trumps all other considerations.
It may do wonders to your game.

Rainer Herrmann

"Strain-seeking" is confusing, sorry. My question was whether 5♣ could be invitational or whether it should be treated as forcing to slam, either for finding the right strain or for setting trumps and soliciting 6-level cuebids.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

quiddity, on 2013-August-06, 11:31, said:

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This auction came up in the I/A forum.

In the first place, (EDIT:) Advancer's's (North's ) DBL is Responsive... showing EQUAL length in BOTH majors ( probably 4-4 ). If he were 4-3 he would just bid his 4 card major ( or pass if too weak ) .

The T/O doubler's ( South's ) hand apparently is too strong to just pick-a-major at the 4-level, and I suspect 5C show's a void. If previously discussed, North could reply 6 Ace-Exclusion ... and South would be in a position to bid 6M or sign-off in 5M .