[tysen2k]

IMP's Both vulnerable

♠AQxx
♥JTxx
♦xx
♣Qxx

1[cl] [space](art. strong)
 [space] [space] [space] 2[di] (9-11 balanced)
2[he] (nat, 5+)
 [space] [space] [space] 3[he] (3+ support)
4NT (RCKB)
 [space] [space] [space] 5[cl] (1 or 4)
5[di] (Do you have the HQ?)
 [space] [space] [space] ?

[Free]

Depends if I need a swing or not.

[inquiry]

You didn't say. Does 2♥ promise five+ hearts? But no matter, there are two reasons why you might lie about the trump queen.

1) You have enough heart legnth to make it likely the queen will fall.. 10 hearts between the two hands would be right. Here, you would have to know your partner has six hearts to lie, I don't see how you can know this at this point.

2) If your bid might end the auction (as it might here) when you hold JT(x) so a hook is possible, AND YOU HOLD something extra as a surpize, you can consider the lie. For instance, if spades was trumps (reversing majors) as I could bid 5H and when partner bids 5S) and if I had undisclosed extras and trump JT I would not lie and then, at my own risk, give slam a shot after my 5H bid and partner signs off in 5S. Here I have the JT and 5♥ might end the auction, but I have absolutely nothing extra. I promised nine to 12, I have nine. True, with AKxxx opposite JTxx, odds favor no heart loser (about 58%), but JTxx opposite Kxxxx rates to lose two tricks 70% of the time, and opposite K9xxx you have two losers half the time. So as much as it pains me, no, I will not lie here.

Ben

[pclayton]

What does partner's 2♥ call promise in terms of length. More importantly, what does MY raise promise? Can I make it on xxx. Do I need Hxx? If I do promise Hxx, then I CANT lie about the Q♥. Further, I assume there is a stayman mechanism over 2♦.

If I had a 5th heart, I'd lie, but then I'm not bidding 2♦ I guess. Pard might be looking for 7 and the Q♥ could be critical.

Part of the issue lies with the system I think. Why is a precision pair leaping to 4N when a low level trump / control / key card ask should be available? 2♦ as showing a balanced hand is pretty avant-garde, so I'm surprised that more basic asking bids aren't available.

[hrothgar]

tysen2k, on Dec 15 2004, 08:28 PM, said:

IMP's Both vulnerable

♠AQxx
♥JTxx
♦xx
♣Qxx

1[cl] [space](art. strong)
 [space] [space] [space] 2[di] (9-11 balanced)
2[he] (nat)
 [space] [space] [space] 3[he] (3+ support)
4NT (RCKB)
 [space] [space] [space] 5[cl] (1 or 4)
5[di] (Do you have the HQ?)
 [space] [space] [space] ?

Very interesting post and a very nasty problem.
If I thought that partner was looking for the Queen of trumps in order to check on a grand I'd clearly deny the Queen. If I thought that partner was looking for a small slam, I'd be inclined to show it. Sadly, with partner the captain, I don't have any good way to know whats up.

Annoying that partner jumped to RKCB over 4♥. Losing an entire level of bidding makes for imprecise auctions. Personally, I'm going show the Queen of trump. The JT is worth too much to consider a pass. If partners heart's were terrible, he could always use a trump quality ask...

[flytoox]

never lie to pd.

[whereagles]

I don't see any reason to lie. Pard is 100% in control. Disregard his authority at your own risk (I.e. start thinking of excuses if the queen doesn't drop lol.)

[hrothgar]

flytoox, on Dec 15 2004, 10:36 PM, said:

never lie to pd.

Lie is a terrible choice of words

The 5D bid denies the Queen of trump and asks whether partner believe that he can cover this loser. Partner is expected to bid 5NT holding extra trump length. Given that this is systemic, how can it be considered a lie?

[EricK]

I wouldn't "lie". Partner has taken control when I am sure he had other options and asked me a question. I shall answer it accurately.

Didn't I have a bid which promised 4♥ though? eg 3♠ (showing ♠A as well!).

Eric

[whereagles]

Well, usually two extra trumps compensate for the lack of queen, but not only one.

[tysen2k]

I added the fact that 2♥ shows 5+.

Our 3♥ bid could be made on xxx but not 4-3-3-3 shape.

Does anyone want to draw any inferences from the fact that partner went to 4N over 3♥ instead of going slower?

[EricK]

tysen2k, on Dec 15 2004, 09:10 PM, said:

I added the fact that 2♥ shows 5+.

Our 3♥ bid could be made on xxx but not 4-3-3-3 shape.

Does anyone want to draw any inferences from the fact that partner went to 4N over 3♥ instead of going slower?

I draw the inference that partner can decide on the contract knowing about our number of keycards and the presence or absence of the ♥Q, with the knowledge that we have 3 or 4 trumps.

Eric

[the hog]

Lying destroys partnership trust and is tantamout to operating. What I might do if pd really needs to know whether I have 3 or 4 trumps, is, at the conclusion of the event, to discuss better bidding mechanisms.

[bearmum]

tysen2k, on Dec 16 2004, 06:28 AM, said:

IMP's Both vulnerable

♠AQxx
♥JTxx
♦xx
♣Qxx

1[cl] [space](art. strong)
 [space] [space] [space] 2[di] (9-11 balanced)
2[he] (nat, 5+)
 [space] [space] [space] 3[he] (3+ support)
4NT (RCKB)
 [space] [space] [space] 5[cl] (1 or 4)
5[di] (Do you have the HQ?)
 [space] [space] [space] ?

Strange way of bidding --- BUT I will NOT show a card I HAVEN'T got

If P bids that way (instead of q bidding after I support ♥) I would suppose he/she is looking specifically for the Q♥ -- probably with the idea of bidding 7 IF I have it -- so I am NOT showing it

[Fluffy]

10th trump == trump Q, but not 9th, ♥J is more a wasted value than a plus.

[Gerben47]

If you know you have 10 trumps you should always show the Queen of trumps as you know that if it is missing it is not likely to matter. This is not a question of lying, partner's question is to be understood as: Do you have the Queen of trump or a 10-card fit for me?

I think with four trumps it is a close decision but because I have JTxx I would lie here, jumping to 4NT without QJT of trumps probably suggests he has 6 of them.

So my answer is: Yes but not without J or 10.

[Gerben47]

Can I add a systemic suggestion? After 1♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ play that a jump shift shows a control in the suit ♥ and 4-card support. It cannot be a splinter because 2♦ showed a balanced hand.

Then you won't have this problem, at (the) other table(s) the auction might go 1♥ - 3♣ Bergen and they will be miles ahead of you although the point of Precision was to set up a low-level GF to get more precision...