[pclayton]

The other thread about the club raise vs the spade bid and the subsequent discussion about a forcing pass at the 5 level made me think about another hand I had on OKB about 4 years ago:

IMP pairs, all vul:

Pard.....RHO.....Me.....LHO
1N.......2♠.......4♦.........Pass
4♥.......4♠.......?

1N was 14-16 and 4♦ was a Texas Transfer.

Would you consider a pass here forcing?

What about Red on White?

Or White on Red?

[the hog]

No in all cases. To set up a fp auction you could have bid a gf 3H. Incidentally your rho sounds like a nutter. Who bids a nf 2S and then 4S?

[Fluffy]

The fact RHO is a nutter is the fact that can make this bidding a forcing pass, he doesn´t seem to think he is making his contract, so is some cases its good to beleive him .

I wouldn´t take pass as forcing anyway.

[whereagles]

Bidding the same hand twice may be bad strategy, but in practice it does happen very often (especially from players who also play poker) and one should better be prepared to deal with it.

[flytoox]

I think this has to be forcing pass. Two reasons: 1. RHO limited his hand by 2S, so 4S must be for save. 2. We bid a game. Of course he may be walking the dog but I am not going to worry about that all the time.

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Dec 16 2004, 04:38 AM, said:

No in all cases. To set up a fp auction you could have bid a gf 3H. Incidentally your rho sounds like a nutter. Who bids a nf 2S and then 4S?

Ron, the first claim is not true. Playing Texas doesnt imply that is not forcing. The reason you didnt bid 3H is there is still room for Texas.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Dec 16 2004, 12:03 AM, said:

The other thread about the club raise vs the spade bid and the subsequent discussion about a forcing pass at the 5 level made me think about another hand I had on OKB about 4 years ago:

IMP pairs, all vul:

Pard.....RHO.....Me.....LHO
1N.......2♠.......4♦.........Pass
4♥.......4♠.......?

1N was 14-16 and 4♦ was a Texas Transfer.

Would you consider a pass here forcing?

What about Red on White?

Or White on Red?

Pard.....RHO.....Me.....LHO
1N.......2♠.......4♦.........Pass
4♥.......4♠.......?


Vulnerability conditions and whether pass is forcing.....

1) None Vul. - Pass is not forcing
2) They Vul - Pass is not forcing
3) All vul - Pass is not forcing
4) We vul, they not vul - Pass is forcing.

I expect the 4♦ bidder to double most of the time he was serious about 4♥ anyway. But when we are vul and they are not, we KNOW he was serious about 4♥... the other situations, this is not clear. This allows 4♦ bidder to make stronger (pass and pull) and weaker (bid over 4♠) slam tries, which allows you to effectively use your opponents 4♠ bid to help define your hand.

Ben

[whereagles]

I don't think there's a case for forcing pass at any vulnerability.

The 4D bid could have been done with the intention of luring opps into a phantom save. The tactics seems to have worked, so just let them go down in peace. Opener is not invited to take any action but pass, or eventually double with a suitable hand.

[joker_gib]

I have never played those kind of 4-level transfers and I suppose that you have another way to transfer with a strong hand (FG) and ♥ (Rubensohl...)

So those kind of transfers can be done with a weak hand and long ♥.

Therefore, pass should not be forcing in any case !

By the way, for those who are playing Texas, what's the difference between

1NT 4♦
4♥

and

1NT 2♦
2♥ 4♥

[inquiry]

joker_gib, on Dec 16 2004, 11:11 AM, said:

By the way, for those who are playing Texas, what's the difference between

1NT 4♦
4♥

and

1NT 2♦
2♥ 4♥

section auction is mild slam try...

First auction is not over.... here is a further difference...

1N-2D-2H-4N <--- can be passed, quantitative

1N-4D-4H-4N <--- Roman Keycard blackwood, with hearts as trumps.

[pclayton]

The reason I posted this is because I think the bridge community has undergone a shift when it comes to these auctions.

I used to play that whenever we bid a vulnerable game, it sets up a forcing pass. Period, end of story.

Now, with more total tricks bidding going on, the philosophy is get your bid off your chest, and share the decision with pard.

On the actual auction, I think that Ben's thinking is best; pass is forcing only at adverse vulnerability here. I suppose you can go through some machinations to set up a forcing pass earlier on in the auctions, but thats no big deal.

Like Berkowitz says: Pass is forcing only if the janitor can tell if its forcing.

[inquiry]

joker_gib, on Dec 16 2004, 11:11 AM, said:

I have never played those kind of 4-level transfers and I suppose that you have another way to transfer with a strong hand (FG) and ♥ (Rubensohl...)

So those kind of transfers can be done with a weak hand and long ♥.

Therefore, pass should not be forcing in any case !

By the way, for those who are playing Texas, what's the difference between

1NT 4♦
4♥

and

1NT 2♦
2♥ 4♥

Rubenshol hardly helps.. btw, and makes it even worse..... imagine...

1NT-(2S)-3D-(p)
3H-(4S) - ?

(the similar auction).

[joker_gib]

inquiry, on Dec 16 2004, 01:07 PM, said:

joker_gib, on Dec 16 2004, 11:11 AM, said:

I have never played those kind of 4-level transfers and I suppose that you have another way to transfer with a strong hand (FG) and ♥ (Rubensohl...)

So those kind of transfers can be done with a weak hand and long ♥.

Therefore, pass should not be forcing in any case !

By the way, for those who are playing Texas, what's the difference between

1NT  4♦
4♥

and

1NT    2♦
2♥  4♥

Rubenshol hardly helps.. btw, and makes it even worse..... imagine...

1NT-(2S)-3D-(p)
3H-(4S) - ?

(the similar auction).

Yes, you are right, if 3♦ can be long and weak ♥ to stop in 3♥ then you don't have forcing pass anymore