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We lost a Swiss final because I didn't respond 1♠ with this hand. They did at the other table, and the subsequent auction kept our teammmates out of a making 3nt. Usually, when I respond 1♠ with this hand, P makes a strong rebid and we are down at 2nt or 3 o4 ♠. So, I am looking for any advice or guidelines on when - and when not - to respond to p's opener on sub-minimum values. thx
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light response?
#1
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Posted 2012-October-30, 13:26
We lost a Swiss final because I didn't respond 1♠ with this hand. They did at the other table, and the subsequent auction kept our teammmates out of a making 3nt. Usually, when I respond 1♠ with this hand, P makes a strong rebid and we are down at 2nt or 3 o4 ♠. So, I am looking for any advice or guidelines on when - and when not - to respond to p's opener on sub-minimum values. thx
#2
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Posted 2012-October-30, 13:51
bftboy, on 2012-October-30, 13:26, said:
We lost a Swiss final because I didn't respond 1♠ with this hand. They did at the other table, and the subsequent auction kept our teammmates out of a making 3nt. Usually, when I respond 1♠ with this hand, P makes a strong rebid and we are down at 2nt or 3 o4 ♠. So, I am looking for any advice or guidelines on when - and when not - to respond to p's opener on sub-minimum values. thx
Rules for general application are tough. In this situation, though, the primary upsides to bidding are (1) not passing with a stiff in partner's potentially short suit, (2) you have a nice five-card major, and (3) 1♠ is a very preemptive call.
Additionally, you have decent shape. With this 5-4-3-1 pattern, you have only a 10-loser hand before looking at honors. If partner is expected to have a 7-loser hand to open, you expect to take 24-10-7=7 tricks. Thus, you would expect to make 1♠ if partner has a fit. So, you are not that far off a response, especially with Q-x-x possibly removing one loser.
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#3
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Posted 2012-October-30, 15:13
Three things point to responding light with this hand. You have a five card major, you are not vul, and partner will hate your dummy in 1♣.
"What's the big rebid problem? After 1♦ - 1♠, I can rebid 1NT, 2♠, or 2♦."
- billw55
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#4
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Posted 2012-October-30, 15:33
Definitely a 1♠ response. The worst that can happen is a 2NT rebid by opener on a hand where 1♣ would have made or you would have got a plus score some other way. But many good things can happen.
The idea that you need 6 HCP or even 5 HCP to respond has been dead for some time. Unfortunately it has never been given a proper funeral and burial and is now starting to stink up the place.
But don't take too much of the blame when it is your team-mates that missed the 3NT game. The converse of responding 1♠ on this hand is that, when opponents do it, you shouldn't take them seriously and instead continue to bid constructively if your hand warrants it.
The idea that you need 6 HCP or even 5 HCP to respond has been dead for some time. Unfortunately it has never been given a proper funeral and burial and is now starting to stink up the place.
But don't take too much of the blame when it is your team-mates that missed the 3NT game. The converse of responding 1♠ on this hand is that, when opponents do it, you shouldn't take them seriously and instead continue to bid constructively if your hand warrants it.
#5
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Posted 2012-October-30, 15:50
This thread reminds me of a board I played maybe 20 years ago against two enthusiastic younger players....my partner opened, I responded, and we each took 2 calls.....the opps finally balanced and we defended a partial. The opening lead was made and declarer said: They each bid twice....twice! and we have 27 hcp!
Sure, by responding bad things could happen, but so could great things. Imagine partner with AQxx AKxx x Axxx or any 4423 hand.
I could have just upvoted josh's post..he said it better, shorter.
Sure, by responding bad things could happen, but so could great things. Imagine partner with AQxx AKxx x Axxx or any 4423 hand.
I could have just upvoted josh's post..he said it better, shorter.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#6
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Posted 2012-October-30, 19:56
It's definitely a 1 ♠ call.
It's true that if partner has a big hand you might get too high. But partner might fare far worst when playing 1 ♣ holding a 3-1 ♣ suit.
So with some points and shortness in a partner's possible short minor opening suit, you should tend to try to make a response if at all possible. Here you have a 5 card major with good intermediate cards backing an honor in the suit. That partially offsets that you hold only 3 HCP because you can tolerate playing in a ♠ contract.
If there is a ♠ fit with partner, your side might be able to find a decent contract to play, or make it difficult for the opponents to find the right spot.
It's true that if partner has a big hand you might get too high. But partner might fare far worst when playing 1 ♣ holding a 3-1 ♣ suit.
So with some points and shortness in a partner's possible short minor opening suit, you should tend to try to make a response if at all possible. Here you have a 5 card major with good intermediate cards backing an honor in the suit. That partially offsets that you hold only 3 HCP because you can tolerate playing in a ♠ contract.
If there is a ♠ fit with partner, your side might be able to find a decent contract to play, or make it difficult for the opponents to find the right spot.
#7
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Posted 2012-October-31, 03:12
MikeH wrote my feelings much better than i could have.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#8
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Posted 2012-October-31, 03:17
Besides all the good reasons given already: I bet that in the long run you will make less undertricks in 3 ♠ then in 1 ♣.
So what may happen and can be real bad:
1♣ 1 ♠ 3 ♣ Yes, 1 ♣ had been easier, but at least partner has a real decent suit and whop knows, maybe you stopped them from bidding 3 in a red suit.
1 ♣ 1 ♠ 2 NT: Play 3 spade, will usually be not worse then 1 club or 2 NT.
1 ♣ 1 ♠ 3 NT (usually a better gambling minor) This is really really bad luck. But hey, maybe your queen of hearts and the spade stopper is all partner neeeds?
1 ♣ 1 ♠ 2♥: This is surely a much better contract then 1 ♣ but this is usually forcing. And you will pass. Partner must uderstand this.
1♣ 1 ♠ 4 ♠- You can make it.
So what may happen and can be real bad:
1♣ 1 ♠ 3 ♣ Yes, 1 ♣ had been easier, but at least partner has a real decent suit and whop knows, maybe you stopped them from bidding 3 in a red suit.
1 ♣ 1 ♠ 2 NT: Play 3 spade, will usually be not worse then 1 club or 2 NT.
1 ♣ 1 ♠ 3 NT (usually a better gambling minor) This is really really bad luck. But hey, maybe your queen of hearts and the spade stopper is all partner neeeds?
1 ♣ 1 ♠ 2♥: This is surely a much better contract then 1 ♣ but this is usually forcing. And you will pass. Partner must uderstand this.
1♣ 1 ♠ 4 ♠- You can make it.
Kind Regards
Roland
Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
Roland
Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
#9
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Posted 2012-October-31, 04:09
Hi,
I would pass, but if you want to respond, bid 1D, this keeps
the bidding alive, keeps maximal room for opener.
If partner showes up with 4 spades, you can raise.
This assumes, you dont play Walsh, were the seq.
1C - 1D
1S - 2S
may show a stronger hand, than the one you happen to hold.
With kind regards
Marlowe
I would pass, but if you want to respond, bid 1D, this keeps
the bidding alive, keeps maximal room for opener.
If partner showes up with 4 spades, you can raise.
This assumes, you dont play Walsh, were the seq.
1C - 1D
1S - 2S
may show a stronger hand, than the one you happen to hold.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#10
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Posted 2012-October-31, 10:02
Yeah, I pretty much knew I had made a bad mistake when I pulled the green card. It was just dumb. You've all listed lots of good reasons to bid. I think I've just had a run of bad results from responding with sub-minimum values, and was trying to figure out whether there are any go or no-go general guidelines that might lead to more good results and fewer bad ones.
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