[phil_20686]

 MickyB, on 2012-September-14, 06:31, said:

PhilS - your 1C:1S doesn't look right to me. Just play it as ostensibly showing diamonds, opener rebids 1N with a balanced hand and 2C with an unbalanced hand. Worst case scenario is that responder is 3352 and you play the 5-2 club fit. I even have to rebid 2C with 4414 in my methods and it's fine. Now 1C:2C is free for something else.

So obviously 2C is the right rebid at imps. For the reasons you have given. But it cannot show diamonds as you might want to bid it with 3334, and you might also want to bid this way with 3325 and invitational values if you want to right side 3N when you invite/bid game. Rather than starting with a transfer to clubs, and then bidding NT. Obviously I could solve this issue with minor tweaks, but I don't feel any need.

At MP though, you often want to complete into 1N with these 5431 hands, as partner is going to pass 1N 3/4 of the time or so. In which case it can just be a better partial than 2c in terms of MP scoring. I eg, with the first of pk's examples, AQxx AQx x Txxxx I would complete to 1N at MP, but bid 2C at imps.

[PhilKing]

 phil_20686, on 2012-September-14, 07:59, said:

The first hand is a non issue, you just bid 2C. What shape do you think partner is? with 3361 he can pull to 2d (obviously NF), even if he did not want to WJS originally, else he can float 2c.

The second you also just bid 2C. If partner has 8-11 he will find another bid. either 3C or 2d or 2N. I would never reverse on this hand.

Whether you would rebid 2♣ or not is neither here nor there.

The point is that after 1♣-1♦, 2♣ promises 6, allowing partner to just jump to 3NT on something like ♠Axx ♥Axx ♦Jxxxx ♣Qx. In T-Walsh the 2♣ rebid is very loose in both strength and shape, resulting in inevitable loss of subsequent accuracy.

Now obviously on the hand I gave you can move with 2NT and generally get to 3 when its right, but you can't make very light moves in the knowledge that partner has 6 (eg ♠Axx ♥xxx ♦xxxxx ♣KQ), and you will often have to move on indifferent 10 counts that might have just bid 1c-1d-1s-1nt.

[phil_20686]

 PhilKing, on 2012-September-14, 08:11, said:

The point is that after 1♣-1♦, 2♣ promises 6, allowing partner to just jump to 3NT on something like ♠Axx ♥Axx ♦Jxxxx ♣Qx. In T-Walsh the 2♣ rebid is very loose in both strength and shape, resulting in inevitable loss of subsequent accuracy.

Ok, so this is clearer. This is a loss, but I don't think it is very large. You are talking about hands in a very fine line of strength and shape. Transfer walsh has some pretty big gains baked into it, in terms of extra sequences, and extra definition.

I am not sure "System has at least some hands where it loses" really qualifies as an "Achilles' heel".

[MickyB]

@PhilK - 1C:1S, 2C must result in a loss of accuracy, but surely it's small compared to the gains of preemption and non-disclosure.

@PhilS - 2C is allowed to outscore 1NT, even at MP. When you are unbal with a 5-3 or 5-4 fit you'll often take two more tricks with a trump suit.

@adebisi - I agree the some versions of T-Walsh work best if you open 1D with 4D5C - indeed, for a while I played a method that opened 1D with 4D6C - but it's certainly an overbid to imply that it is necessary to open 1D playing T-Walsh. My two preferred methods handle 4D5C brilliantly well through the 1C opening.

@neilkaz - Which of the many methods around would you like the book to contain? It doesn't help that the gains from T-Walsh tend to be small playing 15-17 NT and better minor. Various forms of short club get more out of it, usually in conjunction with a 14-16 NT.

[fromageGB]

Having had some difficulty losing the other major when responder has both majors and 4th seat comes in the bidding, and also having partners who want simple and essentially natural continuations, I am now trying out an idea where all responses below 2NT (apart from 1♠) show majors. 1NT is a weak(ie less than invitational) {54}xx, 2♣ is invitational or better 44xx, 2♦ is 55xx any strength. All NT or minor hands go through a 1♠ relay, where opener typically shows 6 clubs or rebids NT.

This approach is geared to MP where it is important to find major fits, and to play them all right-sided. Seems to be going OK so far.

[jallerton]

 PhilKing, on 2012-September-13, 18:45, said:

However one plays it, the One Spade response to One Club is the Achilles Heel of Transfer Walsh. Hands that would have started 1♣-1♦1♥, for instance now have to bid rebid 1NT, 2♣ or 2♥ over 1♠.

An attractive solution, particularly if One Spade promises diamonds, is to play transfer reverses:

2♦ = hearts
2♥ = spades
2♠ = diamonds (direct 3♦ weak)

Over 2♦ and 2♥ responder just completes to two of the major with a minimum response with 3-card support, so with a 2425 17 count opposite a 3352 6-count, you can stop in a decent contract. The method allows you to reverse pretty light, taking the pressure off the 1NT and 2♣ rebids.

I like it! This frees up 1♣-1♠-3M for single-suited club hands. Or you could extend the transfers rebids and play 1♣-1♠-2♠ as a transfer rebid in clubs (possibly FG) and 1♣-1♠-3♣ as the good diamond raise, retaining 1♣-1♠-3M as splinters agreeing ♦.

I'm less keen on playing 1♣-1♠-2♦ as strong balanced because then either you have dangers of wrong-siding NT or you have to use a sometimes convoluted system of retransfers later.

[PhilKing]

 MickyB, on 2012-September-14, 08:49, said:

@adebisi - I agree the some versions of T-Walsh work best if you open 1D with 4D5C - indeed, for a while I played a method that opened 1D with 4D6C - but it's certainly an overbid to imply that it is necessary to open 1D playing T-Walsh. My two preferred methods handle 4D5C brilliantly well through the 1C opening.

Let's keep this one under our hat, shall we? I don't think we should tell them everything ...

[fromageGB]

 jallerton, on 2012-September-14, 11:24, said:

I'm less keen on playing 1♣-1♠-2♦ as strong balanced because then either you have dangers of wrong-siding NT or you have to use a sometimes convoluted system of retransfers later.

I would have thought that the bigger danger of wrong-siding NT is that there does not seem to be a bid for a balanced less than invitational responder other than 1NT.

[Quantumcat]

 neilkaz, on 2012-September-13, 11:38, said:

It would be nice if someone came out with a good book on these methods.

I found the article. Here it is:
http://www.australia...1_transfers.pdf

[Adebisi]

1c-1S-2D doesent wrongsiding NT: u play 2H as inv to 3NT( with min opener bids 2NT), 2S is TRF to 2NT( bids after 2NT are free to use and direct bids after 2D are also )

[fromageGB]

 Adebisi, on 2012-September-15, 16:00, said:

1c-1S-2D doesent wrongsiding NT: u play 2H as inv to 3NT( with min opener bids 2NT), 2S is TRF to 2NT( bids after 2NT are free to use and direct bids after 2D are also )

Very sensible, but my partners would call this "a sometimes convoluted system of retransfers later". They would be bound to get mixed up and making the wrong bid is critical.

Fine if you both have memories, and you don't feel Alzheimer's is fast approaching.

[fromageGB]

 PhilKing, on 2012-September-14, 18:06, said:

Let's keep this one under our hat, shall we? I don't think we should tell them everything ...

So don't tell us everything, just the bid you make to show a 13 count xx45 when partner has denied a major with 1♠ or 1NT or whatever your balanced hand response is ?

[PhilKing]

 fromageGB, on 2012-September-16, 10:22, said:

So don't tell us everything, just the bid you make to show a 13 count xx45 when partner has denied a major with 1♠ or 1NT or whatever your balanced hand response is ?

I would rebid 2c non-descriptive, just like everyone else, since I play 1S as no major rather than diamonds as in MickyB TriBal deluxe. 1NT would show a weak NT for me.

But 45mm weak is almost impossible given the opponents failure to overcall unless partner has enough to bid again. 4M5c is much more likely.

After 1c-1d, 1NT would show 45 in the minors and 11-14 though.

[Zelandakh]

In my methods the auction 1♣ - 1♠; 2♦ is GF, Opener has 15-17 balanced with no 5 card major; Responder has 9+ and no 4+ card major. The structure I play here ought to be adaptable to Opener being big and balanced if that also establishes a game force.

2♥ = 4-3, 4-4, 5-3 or 5-4 in the minors (Minor Suit (Puppet) Stayman in effect)
2♠ = puppet to 2NT (to play 3NT; or 33(25); or to ask for a major suit stopper)
2NT = 5+-5+ in the minors
3m = 6+ in m (Frivolous + cues)
3M = splinter
3N = to play

I don't think this is particularly complicated and it covers everything.