[FrancesHinden]

 32519, on 2012-July-07, 00:19, said:

After a 1NT opening, I have to make choices as to which conventions to include in my partnership bidding agreements. As I cannot have them all, which should I retain and which should I give up on? E.g.
......
Assume 2/1 as your system with plenty of gadgets. Faced with all these choices, which would be more beneficial to retain. Frequency of occurrence can play a role here.

This is the wrong question to ask. You should never design a system by saying 'here is a list of possible conventions, which should I play?'. You do one of two things:

(i) take an existing system of responses to 1NT and play it (e.g. standard american, BWS, SEF, Keri, TNS), or:
(ii) go through the following process:

a) after assuming a few basics (e.g. being able to find a 4-4 major suit fit, being able to sign off in 2M with a weak hand) sort the following into order of priority, including in addition anything that matters to you that I've left out:

• making the strong hand declarer
  
• concealing information about declarer's shape/range
  
• ability to stop in 2M when responder has an invitational hand with a 5-card major, and/or when responder has an invite and you find a 4-4 major suit
  
• some form of crawling/garbage stayman
  
• ability to investigate minor suit slams when responder has a long minor and know when to stop in 3NT/4NT/5m
  
• ability to investigate light minor suit slams by responder showing shape below 3NT
  
• ability to sign off in (i) 2D (ii) 3m
  
• ability to investigate playing in a 5-2 major suit fit with no stop in a side suit
  
• ability to investigate playing in responder's 5-3 or 6-2 major suit fit and know if it's right to play 3NT instead
  
• ability to invite showing a long minor suit and/or ability to stop in 3m when it's right
  
• ability to find 5-3 major suit fits in opener's suit
  
• ability to find 5-3 minor suit fits in either opener or responder's long suit
  
• ability to find 4-4 minor suit fits and still stop in 4NT (or still stop in 3NT)
  
• ability for responder to show a 3-suiter below 3NT
  
• ability for responder to show various sorts of invite without opener disclosing anything about their hand
  
• ability to stop in 3m in opener's long suit when responder has an invite
  
• ability to find a 4-4 major suit fit and then offer 3NT as a possible contract
  
• ability for responder to make a descriptive slam try after finding a major suit fit
  
• ability to cope with 4th hand intervention e.g. responder showing his long suit immediately (rather than a transfer possibly being the start of a relay sequence)

A number of these objectives are incompatible, so you have to decide which you prefer.
Once you've done that, you can decide which system of responses to play. It's the one which satisfies your priorities as far as possible.

[Vampyr]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-July-13, 00:52, said:

This is incorrect. The original Puppet Stayman after a 1NT opening is precisely what you are describing as 5 card Stayman. However, it is a good example of why one should not use convention names in describing bids. Here is a short wiki write-up.

I was referring to a 3♣ bid as 5-card/Puppet Stayman. The link posted concurs with my understanding of the differences.

[MickyB]

 Vampyr, on 2012-July-14, 12:29, said:

I was referring to a 3♣ bid as 5-card/Puppet Stayman. The link posted concurs with my understanding of the differences.

Puppet = Responder rebids hearts to show four spades or vice-versa
5-Card Stayman = Responder rebids a major to show four cards in that suit

[gwnn]

If that is the difference it seems superior to play puppet. They can x for a lead once in a while but we get a COG sequence and we get to rightside.

edit: and responder can commence cue-bidding if he so wishes (for spades).

[Vampyr]

 gwnn, on 2012-July-14, 15:12, said:

If that is the difference it seems superior to play puppet. They can x for a lead once in a while but we get a COG sequence and we get to rightside.

What was being discussed was playing both after a 1NT opening. In such a case I think that Puppet is worse, since it is useful to be able to conceal whether opener holds a 4-card major.

One could also conceal responder's possession of a 4-card major if not including other hands in the convention.

[MickyB]

 Vampyr, on 2012-July-15, 16:54, said:

What was being discussed was playing both after a 1NT opening. In such a case I think that Puppet is worse, since it is useful to be able to conceal whether opener holds a 4-card major.

One could also conceal responder's possession of a 4-card major if not including other hands in the convention.

Gwnn was replying to my post. Yes, obviously there are advantages to concealing opener's shape where possible, that is the main reason people play 2N or 3C as Puppet rather than just going through 2C Stayman.

[Vampyr]

 MickyB, on 2012-July-15, 17:13, said:

Gwnn was replying to my post. Yes, obviously there are advantages to concealing opener's shape where possible, that is the main reason people play 2N or 3C as Puppet rather than just going through 2C Stayman.

But is 3♣ Puppet workable without opener bidding 3♦ to show a 4-card major? If not, then opener's shape is not concealed.

[MickyB]

 Vampyr, on 2012-July-15, 17:46, said:

But is 3♣ Puppet workable without opener bidding 3♦ to show a 4-card major?

Yes. Just as workable as 5-card non-puppet.

[ColdCrayon]

I play the Quest system. You lose the 2NT invitational bid - you have to go through stayman, forcing the opener to reveal a four-card major, but you gain accuracy unlike any other 1NT system. No idea why it's not more widely discussed. (btw, 3C over 1NT is a concealed splinter). It's based on stayman, 4-way transfers (2NT->diamonds), and a bunch of relay systems for dealing with 4333 symmetrical hands. No smolen or puppet stayman.
http://www.pattayabr...iddingindex.htm


Over interference, I drop it completely and play lebensohl/transfer lebensohl like everyone else.

[Zelandakh]

 ColdCrayon, on 2012-July-20, 10:30, said:

I play the Quest system. You lose the 2NT invitational bid - you have to go through stayman, forcing the opener to reveal a four-card major, but you gain accuracy unlike any other 1NT system.

I only took a very quick look at the summary but would you like to explain where you gain accuracy unlike any other system. It seemed to me that Responder had fewer options than the 1NT responses I used to play before Puppet. Even comparing with my Puppet scheme I could not immediately see where the extraordinary accuracy comes from. I could live with losing a direct invite if the rest of the system was good enough. However, my experience of designing methods over 1NT is that passing diamond hands through 2♣ is the biggest nett saving of all and frees up enough sequences to allow lots of flexibility in design. I find it incredibly surprising that so few pairs use this approach.

Finally, for a weak NT the ETM scheme is probably the most flexible and accurate (Keri advocates might disagree). Unfortunately it suffers from the twin problems of being extremely complicated and unsuitable for playing with a strong NT.

[MickyB]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-July-23, 00:58, said:

However, my experience of designing methods over 1NT is that passing diamond hands through 2♣ is the biggest nett saving of all and frees up enough sequences to allow lots of flexibility in design. I find it incredibly surprising that so few pairs use this approach.

2♣ then 3♣ as diamonds is definitely good, but I'm not convinced this means that diamond single-suiters should start with Stayman.

- After 1N:2C, 2M:3C, where 2M could be 4-4 in the majors, you'll miss your 4-4 fits in oM when responder is weakish. Sometimes you'll play 3D instead of 4M.
- Both 5D4oM and 6D1X hands need to go somewhere. Can you really fit them both into 2C,3C? If not, why not have the 6D1X hands start with a 3C transfer?
- If oppo bid over Stayman, you'll be behind a pair playing 4-suit transfers.

[VMars]

 FrancesHinden, on 2012-July-14, 06:18, said:

This is the wrong question to ask. You should never design a system by saying 'here is a list of possible conventions, which should I play?'.

I can't upvote, but this is absolutely the right point to make!

[isomorphic]

 32519, on 2012-July-07, 00:19, said:

After a 1NT opening, I have to make choices as to which conventions to include in my partnership bidding agreements. As I cannot have them all, which should I retain and which should I give up on? E.g.
1. 2♠ initiating a minor suit signoff (as is part of SAYC)
2. 2♠ as Minor Suit Stayman
3. 2♠ as a transfer to ♣ (4-way transfers)
4. 2NT as invitational to 3NT, no 4-card major
5. 2NT as a transfer to ♦ (4-way transfers)
6. 3♣ as Puppet Stayman
7. 3♣ as a ♣ bust
8. 3♣ as invitational to 3NT, decent 6-card suit
9. 3♣ as a minor suit game invite (force?), 5-5 in the minors
10. 3♦ as a ♦ bust
11. 3♦ as invitational to 3NT, decent 6-card suit
12. 3♦ as a minor suit game force (slam interest?), 5-5 in the minors

These are just some possibilities. There are others e.g.
13. 3♥/3♠ as slam interest in the suit

Assume 2/1 as your system with plenty of gadgets. Faced with all these choices, which would be more beneficial to retain. Frequency of occurrence can play a role here.

I like the following:
2♣ = Stayman (I don't open 1NT with a 5 card major, so no need for Puppet Stayman)
2♦ = Transfer to ♥
2♥ = Transfer to ♠
2♠ = Minor-suit Stayman
2NT = Transfer to ♣ (to invite 3NT, bid Stayman first, then 2NT)
3♣ = Transfer to ♦
3♦/3♥/3♠ can then be used for whatever you want, but I like Bergen's suggestion of using them as splinter bids. Knowing partner has a singleton/void can both help find a trump fit and suggest a slam if partner has losers in that suit for you to ruff.

[steve2005]

ok i'll add my system over 15-17 1NT
first off,i will frequently open 1N with 5m422 a 5M or 6m
2♣ - Stayman INV+ not garbage Stayman
includes Slam hand with 4m rebid 4♣/4♦
GF hand with 6+m rebid 3♣/3♦
Slam hand with 5+m rebid 3m or in some cases 4m
otherwise will have a 4 card major
3♣/♦- ]NV with 6+ ♣/♦
3♥ - GF 31(45)
3♠ - GF 13(45)
3N - to play
4♣ - Gerber
4♦/4♥- Texas transfer, exclusion keycard and Kickback keycard run thru here
4♠ - transfer to 5♣opener may bid 4N with exceptional fit for ♣. exclusion keycard run thru here
4N - Quantitative
5♣ - transfer to ♦, exclusion keycard run thru here

have methods to show 5-card major or 6-card minor not in all cases but a lot