[jillybean]

That sums up our 2 sessions at the sectional, oh well.

Here's one board

---

[BunnyGo]

What do you play 3♣ as?

[jillybean]

Limit raise in ♦

[BunnyGo]

And 2♣ is a GF? Then there's no (obvious) choice but to bid 1NT....

This post has been edited by BunnyGo: 2012-February-12, 10:07

[bill1157]

BunnyGo, on 2012-February-12, 10:05, said:

And 2♣ is a GF? Then there's no (obvious) choice but to bid 1NT....

I don't see why 2♣ be a game force: i think 2/1 is gf over a major opening (if you are playing 2/1gf...) I suppose if you do play 1NT as forcing, you would need a 1♥ response as artificial.
So: 2♣ for me...

[aguahombre]

bill1157, on 2012-February-12, 11:17, said:

I don't see why 2♣ be a game force: i think 2/1 is gf over a major opening (if you are playing 2/1gf...) I suppose if you do play 1NT as forcing, you would need a 1♥ response as artificial.
So: 2♣ for me...

Not everyone will stipulate that 2/1 G.F. only applies after an opening 1M, so the problem in the OP still stands.

Unfortunately, the combination of 2/1 G.F. and using 3C artificially would make this one unsolvable for us ---and is the reason we don't have those conditions. We are content with a simple inverted 2D raise instead of 3C, which would leave the jump to 3C for this one.

Of course, that doesn't help answer OP, here. Sorry.

[BunnyGo]

bill1157, on 2012-February-12, 11:17, said:

I don't see why 2♣ be a game force: i think 2/1 is gf over a major opening (if you are playing 2/1gf...) I suppose if you do play 1NT as forcing, you would need a 1♥ response as artificial.
So: 2♣ for me...

2♣ over 1♦ is the toughest start to an auction in 2/1. Some play it as GF, some as forcing through 3♣, some as forcing to 3NT or 4 minor. I was under the impression (based on my memory) that jilly plays it as GF.

If it's forcing to only 3♣, then 2♣ is a fine bid. If it's GF, then I'd suggest that she make 3♣ inv with clubs, but that doesn't help with the problem as posed.

[MrAce]

bill1157, on 2012-February-12, 11:17, said:

I don't see why 2♣ be a game force: i think 2/1 is gf over a major opening (if you are playing 2/1gf...) I suppose if you do play 1NT as forcing, you would need a 1♥ response as artificial.
So: 2♣ for me...

It is GF in 2/1.

Also

1m-2M is also GF in original 2/1 showing 13+ hcp

Of course original 2/1 is very old and people have modified it a lot since then, 1♦-2♣ is pretty much depends on pdship agreement. It was popular to play it 1 round forcing a decade ago or so but i think most good players play it GF now.

[quiddity]

Even if 2♣ isn't strictly game forcing it still shows a good hand, not an 8-count with a broken suit. I'd bid 1NT unless 2♣ is defined as "non-forcing".

[gordontd]

MrAce, on 2012-February-12, 23:45, said:

It is GF in 2/1.

It is GF in versions of 2/1 that define it as GF

MrAce, on 2012-February-12, 23:45, said:

1m-2M is also GF in original 2/1 showing 13+ hcp

When this was played as strong, I think it was usually played as rather stronger than that.

MrAce, on 2012-February-12, 23:45, said:

Of course original 2/1 is very old and people have modified it a lot since then,

This seems to suggest that there was at one time a single, true 2/1. I'm not sure that was ever the case.

[aguahombre]

quiddity, on 2012-February-12, 23:56, said:

Even if 2♣ isn't strictly game forcing it still shows a good hand, not an 8-count with a broken suit. I'd bid 1NT unless 2♣ is defined as "non-forcing".

If 2C/1D is not game forcing if responder rebids 3C...the normal agreement for those who don't have it G.F... I don't believe the point count is the determining factor with this one.

The 7th club and the KJX of pard's diamonds would make this an obvious 2C response if there had been a major suit (or even 1NT) overcall in between. I don't see the advantage in letting 2nd hand's pass cause us to take a weird 1NT action.

If 1D-3C shows an expected 10-12 with club length, this 8-count would qualify IMO. The three of clubs is an extra trick.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2012-February-12, 09:32, said:

That sums up our 2 sessions at the sectional, oh well.

Here's one board

---

1nt


Dont have any way to show a weak hand with long clubs if the opp are silent.


However opp will often come into the bidding allowing me to show this hand type or if pard can now reverse.

[han]

You have to bid 1NT. Playing 1D - 3C as invitational is useful when you have an invitational hand with diamonds, but when you have a hand like this perhaps you'd prefer to play 1D - 3C as invitational with clubs. Even though the hand is a bit light in HCP, I would certainly make that call if it was available.

[neilkaz]

I agree with Han and Mike here and just bid 1NT. Often this won't end the auction. Perhaps the opps come into it in a major or perhaps PD rebids.

[ggwhiz]

The problem with bidding 2♣ as non forcing when followed by 3♣ is when the opponents compete and your partner is in the dark. Very likely on these colours and with this shape. I think that approach has fallen out of favour.

I'm with the rest, no choice but 1nt. My partner strains to bid with a singleton and with white opponents I'll be able to bid 3♣ next almost always.

[ahydra]

1NT - slightly too weak for 2C (much too weak if playing 2/1). Ugly indeed.

ahydra

[jillybean]

---

I couldn't bring myself to bid 1n (I acknowledge I should have) and ended up playing in 2♣. Much to the chagrin of my opponents
who said much the same as the replies here - I have to bid 1N.

[FrancesHinden]

Your opponents should keep quiet. Even if we (and they!) don't necessarily agree with passing 1D, it worked like a charm and you got to a great spot. They should congratulate you on guessing well.

[aguahombre]

Frances must be a fine poker player, as well. That strategy in conversation at the poker table works quite well, unless there is someone else present who would prefer to pipe up with his Phil Helmuth imitation.

[Quartic]

I really don't see a problem with bidding 1NT here - this must promise 4 clubs

I play 4 card majors, so my partner's 1♦ is always 4+. As I'm happy to raise (to 2♦) with only 3 card support, 1NT would show 5 clubs for me here, but that's more a matter of style.